Limited Optics

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 If we only look at hardware. Have you seen some of the Shadows that folks are running for CO these days. Thumb rest like an open gun, brass grips, weight pushing 50 oz. Same for the p320 with the tungsten frame. Yet I see plenty of glocks and walthers being shot in CO, both are very competitive guns in competent hands. This game is a hobby for most and it will always have the hardware arms race element in it.

 

that's only because 2011's are not allowed in CO, and the other stuff is. In every division where they allowed, 2011's entirely dominate the division at big matches, and literally the only people using anything else are pro shooters that are paid to shoot something else.

 

I like my shadow2 (no thumbrest or brass grips of course, since those are dumb), but if CO allowed 2011's, I would eventually get one, and so would everyone else except noobs and people paid to shoot something else.

[Gene_WI]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

that's only because 2011's are not allowed in CO, and the other stuff is. In every division where they allowed, 2011's entirely dominate the division at big matches, and literally the only people using anything else are pro shooters that are paid to shoot something else.

 

I like my shadow2 (no thumbrest or brass grips of course, since those are dumb), but if CO allowed 2011's, I would eventually get one, and so would everyone else except noobs and people paid to shoot something else.

 If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that we need a division(s) that explicitly forbid SAO guns?

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Gene_WI said:

 If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that we need a division(s) that explicitly forbid SAO guns?

yup, that is my opinion. we have that division in CO now, and the result is a very diverse array of competitive guns from all manner of manufacturers. Contrast that to what we see in open, limited and L10, which are almost exclusively 2011's except for the paid pros and the noobs.

 

personally, I'd rather the weight limit was lower for CO, but it doesn't really matter because I think 50+ oz minor guns are a competitive disadvantage. What I like tho is that the division is based on guns you can buy at the store, off the shelf. My local hardware store has a shadow 2 as well as several caniks. I believe they also have p320 legions, but I never look at that part of the display case. They don't have any 2011's.

[Gene_WI]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

yup, that is my opinion. we have that division in CO now, and the result is a very diverse array of competitive guns from all manner of manufacturers. Contrast that to what we see in open, limited and L10, which are almost exclusively 2011's except for the paid pros and the noobs.

 

personally, I'd rather the weight limit was lower for CO, but it doesn't really matter because I think 50+ oz minor guns are a competitive disadvantage. What I like tho is that the division is based on guns you can buy at the store, off the shelf. My local hardware store has a shadow 2 as well as several caniks. I believe they also have p320 legions, but I never look at that part of the display case. They don't have any 2011's.

 

That is a very reasonable perspective. I can see why CO should stay as is. The limited optics debate I think is largely because of "production" grade 2011s coming to market, and the sport asking where do they belong? 

 

The above begs a question, why should all guns be competitive? The Glock 19 is probably the most carried gun in the US, (I carry one) I don't think its in any way competitive in any division. Should we have a Glock 19 division to accommodate me shooting my carry gun at the nats.... etc.

[Racinready300ex]

I still think there is a place for divisions with restrictions on gear. But like every other hobby it's easy for the lifers to get carried away and price the hobby out of reach of the average joe which stifles growth.

 

I used to be in a club that had a Rimfire benchrest match, I was MD for a year even. Rule was had to be a factory rifle shot from a rest. So new member thinks hey that'll be a fun hobby. I'll take my 10/22 and shoot. Then I get to tell him his stock is technically aftermarket but I'll let it slide because I know he's in over his head anyway. 

 

He's post up at a bench with his 3-500 rig. Next to him is a 3k dollar Anshutz with a 2.5k in the scope. He won't know it but the owner sent it to a gun smith and had everything inspected, trued and then the action bedded to the stock. Then he buys 10 batches of the 20 dollar a box ammo to test and figure out which lot shoots best in his gun so he can buy a few cases. Most of those guys would even go through several guns before finding the one that could win. 

 

While I shot it there were about 5 guys who could win. Top prize was a little hat pin. Then there were about 5 normal people with more reasonable gear just hoping to get close to those guys and have fun.

 

We really didn't attract many new shooters. 

 

The next move was make the target smaller and allow custom guns that were roughly double the cost. 

[fcernese]

Is it true? LO provisional on May 1st?

[3gunDMD]

1 hour ago, fcernese said:

Is it true? LO provisional on May 1st?

Yes

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Gene_WI said:

 

The above begs a question, why should all guns be competitive? The Glock 19 is probably the most carried gun in the US, (I carry one) I don't think its in any way competitive in any division. Should we have a Glock 19 division to accommodate me shooting my carry gun at the nats.... etc.

that question is easy to answer. No.

 

production and CO already fill the need to compete with something that is almost the same (if not the exact same) as your carry/defense gun. I don't carry a shadow 2, but I do carry either a p01 or cz75. glock owners who don't carry full-sized guns often compete with the full-size. Most all the competitive production/co guns have compact versions that people carry.

[Racinready300ex]

At this point I'd shoot a carry division, s#!t I've shot CO with a P01 and a 365 in the past and I'll do it again I'm sure. Most people don't want guns that are harder to shoot so this wouldn't be popular at all. Look at IDPA CCP division. 

[Gene_WI]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that question is easy to answer. No.

 

production and CO already fill the need to compete with something that is almost the same (if not the exact same) as your carry/defense gun. I don't carry a shadow 2, but I do carry either a p01 or cz75. glock owners who don't carry full-sized guns often compete with the full-size. Most all the competitive production/co guns have compact versions that people carry.

 

I was being sarcastic about G19.

If LO is driven by the perceived need to include staccato and springfield 2011s in a competitive division; why not just include them in carry optics, under the same production gun rules list as everything else. Do you think if that happens 2011s will dominate the division?

 

I think we have way too many divisions, and it takes away from the sport. Section\area match performance should count for more in the classification system. With the current rules, every new division we add makes a match bump that much harder to attain.

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

I was being sarcastic about G19.

If LO is driven by the perceived need to include staccato and springfield 2011s in a competitive division; why not just include them in carry optics, under the same production gun rules list as everything else. Do you think if that happens 2011s will dominate the division?

 

SA guns are excluded from production. If we change the rules to allow them, then yes, single-action guns will eventually dominate the division, just like they do every other division where they are allowed.

 

Based on the popularity of CO, I think there will plenty enough participation to support both a racier custom-driven optic division, and a more production 'carry/duty' oriented optic division.

Edited March 9, 2023 by motosapiens

[Gene_WI]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

SA guns are excluded from production. If we change the rules to allow them, then yes, single-action guns will eventually dominate the division, just like they do every other division where they are allowed.

 

Based on the popularity of CO, I think there will plenty enough participation to support both a racier custom-driven optic division, and a more production 'carry/duty' oriented optic division.

 

So long term, assuming USPSA does't go bankrupt in the near future. What should happen. Optics will dominate, and I think in the next 5-10 year irons will be a thing of the past. Should LO have major/minor scoring and become what limited is today for iron sights? Just curious what you think. You make a good case for having a striker DA/SA divisions separate from SAO.

[RJH]

Quick thought on "watering down" divisions. If USPSA had 20 divisions, but 90% of shooters shot in four divisions, are divisions really watered down? 

 

That's not to say I'm advocating for 20 divisions, but if there's two guys shooting revolver, one guy shooting L10, five guys in production and five guys in single stack, in a match with 300 people, did that really hurt any of the other divisions?

[ddc]

33 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

snip... Optics will dominate, and I think in the next 5-10 year irons will be a thing of the past....snip

 

I believe this will happen and I also don't think there is anything that can be done about it and I doubt if anything should be done about it. Tech marches forward. Nobody is carrying around an English broadsword on their hip. Nobody uses old Wang word processors just for fun.

 

I'm already talking to people who don't understand why anyone in their right mind would choose iron sights over optics.

The toothpaste is out of the tube.

 

I think the only way to preserve a healthy level of competition in an iron sight division is to provide some kind of positive reward for shooting it. Whether that is more ammo capacity, automatic major power factor scoring regardless of ammo used, etc.  I don't know what would be a realistic reward that would be acceptable by the majority.

[ddc]

32 minutes ago, RJH said:

Quick thought on "watering down" divisions. If USPSA had 20 divisions, but 90% of shooters shot in four divisions, are divisions really watered down? 

 

That's not to say I'm advocating for 20 divisions, but if there's two guys shooting revolver, one guy shooting L10, five guys in production and five guys in single stack, in a match with 300 people, did that really hurt any of the other divisions?

 

That is the way I see it. I think I posted something similar in this or some other similar thread.

[TaterHead]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

I think the only way to preserve a healthy level of competition in an iron sight division is to provide some kind of positive reward for shooting it. Whether that is more ammo capacity, automatic major power factor scoring regardless of ammo used, etc.  I don't know what would be a realistic reward that would be acceptable by the majority.

One of the silliest things I have read in this thread. Don’t need any rewards, thank you. Ever think iron sights might just be fun?

[ddc]

36 minutes ago, TaterHead said:

One of the silliest things I have read in this thread. Don’t need any rewards, thank you. Ever think iron sights might just be fun?

 

You think they are fun. I think they are fun. But if no one else but you and I are shooting them then how much fun are we having. Maybe that's fun for you. For me not so much. I hope you continue to have fun. Good luck.

 

Edited to add: I'm just throwing sh!t at the wall to see if anything sticks. I don't actually expect anything to change as far as the rules are concerned. We both know that is not going to happen no matter how sparse the iron sight participation turns out to be.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by ddc

[Joe4d]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:22 PM, Dazhi said:

Create a 9mm iron division based on production ruleset plus 140mm mags, SAO and magwells, and watch it become the most popular division in 3 years.   

winner winner chicken dinner..
Only reason CO took off,, people want to shoot basic off the shelf reasonable priced guns with standard factory cheap 9mm ammo.

[Rich406]

18 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

winner winner chicken dinner..
Only reason CO took off,, people want to shoot basic off the shelf reasonable priced guns with standard factory cheap 9mm ammo.

That’s far from the only reason CO took off..

[terrydoc]

4 hours ago, ddc said:

 

I believe this will happen and I also don't think there is anything that can be done about it and I doubt if anything should be done about it. Tech marches forward. Nobody is carrying around an English broadsword on their hip. Nobody uses old Wang word processors just for fun.

 

I'm already talking to people who don't understand why anyone in their right mind would choose iron sights over optics.

The toothpaste is out of the tube.

 

I think the only way to preserve a healthy level of competition in an iron sight division is to provide some kind of positive reward for shooting it. Whether that is more ammo capacity, automatic major power factor scoring regardless of ammo used, etc.  I don't know what would be a realistic reward that would be acceptable by the majority.

No dog in the race as I shoot IPSC in Australia but why would you want automatic major scoring when you're only shooting against folks in the same division? All minor is fine in Production why make the change? If someone wants to shoot major PF in a minor division that's on them.  

Edited March 10, 2023 by terrydoc

[ddc]

9 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

No dog in the race as I shoot IPSC in Australia but why would you want automatic major scoring when you're only shooting against folks in the same division? All minor is fine in Production why make the change? If someone wants to shoot major PF in a minor division that's on them.  

 

Yeah, you guys are taking my suggestion way too seriously. I was only trying to point out that if you want to change human behavior it helps if you give them an incentive to change. Then I threw out a couple of perhaps outrageous suggestions about how to do that. Neither were well though out. Just throwing sh!t at the wall.

(And the only way my suggestion would incentivize Production is with respect to the overall which many seem concerned with.)

 

Move along, nothing to see here. Let's talk about the real world; not my off the wall stream of consciousness thought process.

Edited March 10, 2023 by ddc

[Joe4d]

11 hours ago, Rich406 said:

That’s far from the only reason CO took off..

disagree,, CO went nowhere when it was 10 rounds, plus even after the change all the dots on the market were junk and wernt holding up. No doubt in my mind if the division had basically been full capacity production,, CO would have never grown like it has.  BOD knows that also. Which is why they are requiring optics,, gotta make the sponsors happy

 

[shred]

It's funny because the original origin of IPSC was to figure out what the best guns and most effective techniques were.  "all guns compete together equally".

 

Now that we found the best guns, we have to segregate them off so people don't complain because they have inferior gear.

 

[Rich406]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

disagree,, CO went nowhere when it was 10 rounds, plus even after the change all the dots on the market were junk and wernt holding up. No doubt in my mind if the division had basically been full capacity production,, CO would have never grown like it has.  BOD knows that also. Which is why they are requiring optics,, gotta make the sponsors happy

 

That statement is ridiculous and completely blind to what’s actually going on.

 

Call them a fad, crutch, or way of the future, but the simple fact is, dots are extremely popular. The vast majority of new shooters show up with some kind of dot. 
 

The popularity of dots in USPSA is simply mirroring the hobby in general. 

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, Gene_WI said:

 

So long term, assuming USPSA does't go bankrupt in the near future. What should happen. Optics will dominate, and I think in the next 5-10 year irons will be a thing of the past. Should LO have major/minor scoring and become what limited is today for iron sights? Just curious what you think. You make a good case for having a striker DA/SA divisions separate from SAO.

 

I think irons will probably make a bit of a comeback after the excitement of everyone buying new CO and LO guns wears off. I remember everyone jumped on the pcc train too, but now only a handful of people shoot it.

 

Personally, I would love to see LO be major/minor because I prefer major, and I prefer 40, but most of the people who want LO really really want super-heavy guns to manage the recoil of 9mm, so I don't really see an issue with Open essentially being the mens' division of LO.

 

I think if we leave limited alone, bump production up to 15 rounds, and completely ignore SS and revolver except for specialty matches like SS nationals and the western states SS and Revo matches, we'll probably be fine, and have a sufficiently diverse array of equipment choices.  But to be honest, I don't really care that much. I don't expect significant changes to limited, and I expect my CO gun to remain competitive in either CO or LO, and I expect that SS will continue to only be worth shooting at a handful of big matches, so I'm going to keep doing what I do regardless of how the divisions play out.

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think iron sights still has some appeal for a couple reasons. One is that I think the majority of folks are still carrying iron-sight guns. I don't see any particular reason to put a dot on my carry gun and have one more thing to worry about. Also iron sights still retains the fundamentals of shooting, whereas the dot divisions have made the shooting so much easier that all the other stuff has become much more important. That's good for alot of people, but some of us, at least some of the time, will probably still want to test our skill at the hard part of shooting. We'll be like telemark skiers.

Edited March 10, 2023 by motosapiens