Limited Optics

[Rich406]

36 minutes ago, Stmark73 said:

I'm not saying that CO would not have become popular. What I meant was it won't have that boom in participation in USPSA if it not have been for the round capacity increase.  

 

Yes, I m well aware of what you are trying to say.   
 

I’m saying you’re wrong and don’t really understand the dynamics behind the rise of the CO gun in USPSA.  
 

there’s no sense in going back and forth over it. It’s obvious no minds will be changed. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Rich406

[deerslayer]

37 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

If that’s the case I can’t think of any reason for it not to be allowed in all matches.  

 

Same here, but somewhere some MD may say "we ain't gonna do it!" and no one can make him change.  Also, I don't understand the delay until 2024 to allow LO in area matches, but I'm not in charge.

Edited March 12, 2023 by deerslayer

[Dazhi]

1 hour ago, Rich406 said:

Yes, I m well aware of what you are trying to say.   
 

I’m saying you’re wrong and don’t really understand the dynamics behind the rise of the CO gun in USPSA.  
 

there’s no sense in going back and forth over it. It’s obvious no minds will be changed. 

 

Not trying to change any minds.  The article below has ton of information.  The 10-round CO participation was about the same as resolver for almost 2 years.  

 

The biggest booms were from 2019-2020 and 2021-2022.  I believe those were partly competition-driven shifts of member activities, but an explosion of new optic-ready production guns contributed as well. 

 

Analyzing The 7-Year History Of USPSA Carry Optics Competition

https://www.ssusa.org/content/analyzing-the-7-year-history-of-uspsa-carry-optics-competition/

 

2015 CO became a thing, 10 round limit, 35oz weight limit

2016 (10 round limit, 35oz weight limit) - 2.45% participation (4080 activities, compared to 2.23% for revolver 3711 activities)

2017 (140mm mag, 45oz weight limit) - 6.5% participation

2018 (140mm mag, 45oz weight limit) - 12% participation

2019 (140mm mag, 45oz weight limit) - 16% participation

2020 (140mm mag, 59oz weight limit) - 24.01% participation

2021 (140mm mag, 59oz weight limit) - 30.8% participation

2022 (140mm mag, 59oz weight limit) - 45.3% participation

[Rich406]

48 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

The biggest booms were from 2019-2020 and 2021-2022.  I believe those were partly competition-driven shifts of member activities, but an explosion of new optic-ready production guns contributed as well. 

uhh, that’s pretty much what I’ve been saying. 
 

removing the 10 round limit was not the main factor in the steep growth of CO…

 

In the beginning the only real option for a factory ready dot gun was Glock and a bit later sig. Everything else had to be custom made. Now pretty much every pistol is dot ready. 
 

add to that the reliability of red dots was really bad. 
now it’s much much better.

 

CO would still be the most popular division even if the 10 round limit had stayed in place.  Maybe not 45%, but still on top. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Rich406

[Rich406]

2 hours ago, deerslayer said:

 

Same here, but somewhere some MD may say "we ain't gonna do it!" and no one can make him change.  Also, I don't understand the delay until 2024 to allow LO in area matches, but I'm not in charge.

allowing LO at all matches would give a truer indication about how it matches up against CO.  Or maybe they don’t want that at all..

[RangerTrace]

I saw a lot of 2011s with slide ride dots yesterday at the Dallas Pistol Club's carry gun match.  My GGI P320 CO gun came out on top of all of them and 2nd O/A.  You don't have to have a 2011 to perform well.

[Nathanb]

12 hours ago, Rich406 said:

allowing LO at all matches would give a truer indication about how it matches up against CO.  Or maybe they don’t want that at all..

May be that this years Nationalas are set too. Adding another one to it may make it difficult to have scheduled or too much interest.  Just speculating 

[Rich406]

24 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

May be that this years Nationalas are set too. Adding another one to it may make it difficult to have scheduled or too much interest.  Just speculating 

No nationals is understandable. Barring LO from area matches is not…

[Nathanb]

Just now, Rich406 said:

No nationals is understandable. Barring LO from area matches is not…

Completely glossed over that.  I don’t believe they allowed carry optics for the first year either but I give no fs anyways. 

[shred]

14 hours ago, Rich406 said:

uhh, that’s pretty much what I’ve been saying. 
 

removing the 10 round limit was not the main factor in the steep growth of CO…

 

It certainly was around here.  Dovetail mounts and decent-enough dots were around, and places were offering milling and M&P Cores but almost nobody cared.  As soon as it went hicap, it went nuts.

 

CZ didn't have an optics-ready Shadow 2 until 2020 but they were 28% of the guns at CO Nationals in 2018.

 

Maybe it was different where you are.

 

[marblerocks]

15 hours ago, Dazhi said:

 

Not trying to change any minds.  The article below has ton of information.  The 10-round CO participation was about the same as resolver for almost 2 years.  

 

The biggest booms were from 2019-2020 and 2021-2022.  I believe those were partly competition-driven shifts of member activities, but an explosion of new optic-ready production guns contributed as well. 

 

Analyzing The 7-Year History Of USPSA Carry Optics Competition

https://www.ssusa.org/content/analyzing-the-7-year-history-of-uspsa-carry-optics-competition/

 

2015 CO became a thing, 10 round limit, 35oz weight limit

2016 (10 round limit, 35oz weight limit) - 2.45% participation (4080 activities, compared to 2.23% for revolver 3711 activities)

2017 (140mm mag, 45oz weight limit) - 6.5% participation

2018 (140mm mag, 45oz weight limit) - 12% participation

2019 (140mm mag, 45oz weight limit) - 16% participation

2020 (140mm mag, 59oz weight limit) - 24.01% participation

2021 (140mm mag, 59oz weight limit) - 30.8% participation

2022 (140mm mag, 59oz weight limit) - 45.3% participation

It's interesting to see how popular CO has become. I know it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but division participation seems to change with member interests and trends in competitive guns. Who knows, maybe LO will be the new hotness for a few years.

[ltdmstr]

18 hours ago, deerslayer said:

Also, I don't understand the delay until 2024 to allow LO in area matches, but I'm not in charge.

 

2 hours ago, Rich406 said:

No nationals is understandable. Barring LO from area matches is not…

 

LO is listed as a division for Area 5.  And already has three shooters registered.

[Rich406]

1 minute ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 

LO is listed as a division for Area 5.  And already has three shooters registered.

Area 1 as well. But in both cases LO was added before yesterdays minutes. 

[ltdmstr]

So, do they have to scratch that or can they keep it?

[Rich406]

5 hours ago, shred said:

It certainly was around here.  Dovetail mounts and decent-enough dots were around, and places were offering milling and M&P Cores but almost nobody cared.  As soon as it went hicap, it went nuts.

 

CZ didn't have an optics-ready Shadow 2 until 2020 but they were 28% of the guns at CO Nationals in 2018.

 

Maybe it was different where you are.

 

Maybe if you’re looking at it from the perspective as a current shooter, then sure. 
 

but if you think about it long the lines of new shooters entering the sport, they are like 75% optics, if not higher. 
 

I’d wager that at least 50% of current CO shooters weren’t even around in 2016. 

[Rich406]

3 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

So, do they have to scratch that or can they keep it?

If the BoD is against it, I don’t see how they could….

[BritinUSA]

3 hours ago, Rich406 said:

I’d wager that at least 50% of current CO shooters weren’t even around in 2016. 

I'm not sure what the actual number of current members have joined since 2015 when it was first announced as Provisional.
 

FYI: The original concept went back to 2014; Glock had recently announced the MOS and S&W had their CORE line shortly afterward, I think. 
 

Growth in any new division is dependent on its adoption at L1 events where 90% of our members exclusively compete. Very few people will rush out and buy a new gun immediately so take-up is generally slow.

 

Once 2-3 people at any given match start shooting it then others slowly follow, usually at the start of a new year/season.
 

LO will follow a different pattern than CO; The two divisions are so similar (laughably so in my opinion) there will likely be a rapid growth, adding a magwell has been on the wish-list for many hobbyists, now they have a division where they can jump in for little cost.

 

The shooting season has barely begun in most parts of the country and with the warmer weather finally kicking in around May, I'd expect to see at least a 30% shift from CO to LO. That number will likely exceed 50% by year's end, especially when people realize they can start using race-holsters too.

[Onelap]

Looking forward to shooting my 1911 double stack w/optic. In a class without the power factor minuses.  
 

there are several new double stack options released this year. 
 

i think it will

be a well received and participated in class.  
 

greg in Texas 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Onelap
Spelling

[SufferInSilence]

Can’t remember but: can you classify in a division when it is still provisional? 

[Rich406]

13 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

LO will follow a different pattern than CO; The two divisions are so similar (laughably so in my opinion) there will likely be a rapid growth, adding a magwell has been on the wish-list for many hobbyists, now they have a division where they can jump in for little cost.

 

The shooting season has barely begun in most parts of the country and with the warmer weather finally kicking in around May, I'd expect to see at least a 30% shift from CO to LO. That number will likely exceed 50% by year's end, especially when people realize they can start using race-holsters too.

Time will tell...

[GigG]

14 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

LO will follow a different pattern than CO; The two divisions are so similar (laughably so in my opinion) there will likely be a rapid growth, adding a magwell has been on the wish-list for many hobbyists, now they have a division where they can jump in for little cost.

 

And then they will find that adding a mag well on to a gun doesn't make it competitive in a 2011 based class.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, GigG said:

 

And then they will find that adding a mag well on to a gun doesn't make it competitive in a 2011 based class.

your right, you don't have to add the magwell for it to be competitive. 

 

[Joe4d]

will be hard data shoing it doesnt matter.. ALthough we already have lots and lots of that.. People just refuse to believe it and probably never will.

[SufferInSilence]

10 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

your right, you don't have to add the magwell for it to be competitive. 

 

Exactly.  I remember when folks shot plastic guns in limited, L10, Production, etc all the time and no one shunned the notion.  A bunch of dudes with real fancy guns got whipped up on by skilled enough people with plastics.  

So, it doesn’t matter.  shoot what you want, no one is taking home a new Cadillac from a USPSA match.  

The two divisions are close enough that they may open up slots for natz if they don’t end up combining them in the same venue.  

[SufferInSilence]

Also consider, many of the greats (the top GMs) of the last 10-15-20 years or so, cut their teeth on 2011 platforms of some sort.  

Just like they all, at one point, shot Limited and Open, and eventually all moved into CO at some point, they will also go back to that tried and true 2011 platform that they rode to the top. 
 

They will normalize it, and we’ll follow.