Limited Optics

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So not a 2011 shooter? And he even said Sao guns would fit right in carry-ops now if I remember correct...

 

From what I understand he used to be a limited shooter with 2011's. So he should know both sides. But it's not like he's shooting for Atlas while talking about lowering major PF and adding a minor 2011 division like some podcasters. That seems pretty transparent. 

[YVK]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

 

The problem with allowing major from the get-go is that you basically require it. 

 

 

I don't think you do. Limited now records over half of its scores in minor. The question here is who's going to go build those major pf LO guns. Popularity of CO is equally owed to dots, capacity, and not having to deal with .40. I don't see a lot CO shooters, who have a nice division to shoot in, running out and buying 0.40 sw Arthemises. Likewise, do we expect a lot of Limited guys cutting up their slides for the dots to play in a provisional division with an uncertain future? Even if half of Limited people did that, the division would be about as low-level participation as Production is. New shooters are unlikely to build those guns too.

I doubt that major LimOp is really viable long-term even if allowed at the beginning of a trial phase.

[GigG]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

Well rimfire don't make minor and is not a currently accepted caliber at all. But nice try on a straw man argument.

 

 

The point is if we are going to strip the power part of the equation out we might as well be shooting .22.

[deerslayer]

4 hours ago, shred said:

The way to get rid of Major without pissing people off is to add some complexity-- for a while-- make a "Mid" PF around 135-140.  Scores 5-4-1, so major points for the C and minor points for the D.  Recognizes power on target since LE doesn't shoot 125 PF 9 and penalized bad shots.  

 

Within a couple years everyone will shoot that and nobody will care about Major or Minor anymore and they can go away.

 

 

Where would one routinely find 140 pf match ammo?  

[Racinready300ex]

31 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

I don't think you do. Limited now records over half of its scores in minor. The question here is who's going to go build those major pf LO guns. Popularity of CO is equally owed to dots, capacity, and not having to deal with .40. I don't see a lot CO shooters, who have a nice division to shoot in, running out and buying 0.40 sw Arthemises. Likewise, do we expect a lot of Limited guys cutting up their slides for the dots to play in a provisional division with an uncertain future? Even if half of Limited people did that, the division would be about as low-level participation as Production is. New shooters are unlikely to build those guns too.

I doubt that major LimOp is really viable long-term even if allowed at the beginning of a trial phase.

 

You require it in the sense that it's required in Open or limited. Sure lots of non-competitive guys shoot A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want but the majority of people looking to do as well as they can shoot Major. Minus the one guy. Shooting minor in Limited is leaving free points on the table. Even Nils could of done better shooting Major. 

 

Limited is 17% of the sport, but only half of them shoot major. So call it 9%, and what % do we really expect to cut up their limited gun for a provisional division they might not like.

 

We're pulling a Tonya Harding on LO right out of the gate if we make it major.

[RJH]

46 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

The point is if we are going to strip the power part of the equation out we might as well be shooting .22.

 

No, 22 is a straw man argument because shooting 22 completely changes the game, because you can't knock steel over with a 22. 9 mm works in the game as shot right now.

 

But what people might recognize is that 40 or so years ago when ipsc was invented, people thought power mattered a whole lot in handguns. In the last 40 years people have come to realize that handgun stopping power is basically BS, and shot placement is what matters.

 

Basically DVC shifts from power having more advantage than it ought to, to accuracy having the advantage, or actually equality, it should have had all along. Because shot placement is greater than fictional stopping power

 

I think the only people really pining for major are ones that can't shoot enough alphas and are scared of losing their handicap. All while blustering about being manly men

[RJH]

54 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

I don't think you do. Limited now records over half of its scores in minor. The question here is who's going to go build those major pf LO guns. Popularity of CO is equally owed to dots, capacity, and not having to deal with .40. I don't see a lot CO shooters, who have a nice division to shoot in, running out and buying 0.40 sw Arthemises. Likewise, do we expect a lot of Limited guys cutting up their slides for the dots to play in a provisional division with an uncertain future? Even if half of Limited people did that, the division would be about as low-level participation as Production is. New shooters are unlikely to build those guns too.

I doubt that major LimOp is really viable long-term even if allowed at the beginning of a trial phase.

 

Major scoring is too much of an advantage to overlook, if you are serious about being competitive. If you allow major right off the bat, and 10 guys build major lo guns, you are stuck with that s*** forever. We're building a new division here, it's best to build one that works going into the forward instead of one that's tied to the past that's no longer relevant, and immediately shoots itself in the foot right out of the gate.

 

I still think the real answer is just allowed Sao guns in carry ops, hell even IDPA got it right 

 

 

 

 

 

And I have a major caliber limited gun sitting in my safe that will be obsolete and not good for limited optics, but what's good for me in this second, is not good for the sport in the long term

 

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

If adding a minor scored division is going to bring about 22's maybe we should talk about doing away with all minor. Is that the case we're making here?

 

Of course since most matches I shoot minor makes up 60-80% of the shooters it may be to late. Or we're reaching a bit here. 

[GigG]

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

because you can't knock steel over with a 22

 

Think how much clubs could save it they only needed steel that a 22 could knock over.

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Think how much clubs could save it they only needed steel that a 22 could knock over.

 

You should write you AD requesting a rimfire division. Maybe start a new thread about it to build interest. 

[GigG]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

You should write you AD requesting a rimfire division. Maybe start a new thread about it to build interest. 

 

I never said I wanted an AD division.

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, GigG said:

 

I never said I wanted an AD division.

 

AD = Area Director. You're making a case for a Rimfire division, write your AD. 

[Racinready300ex]

20 minutes ago, RJH said:

And I have a major caliber limited gun sitting in my safe that will be obsolete and not good for limited optics, but what's good for me in this second, is not good for the sport in the long term

 

 

You could load a limited gun to minor, mount a dot on a plate in the dovetail and you'll only be down 2 rounds to a 9mm gun. It's really not world ending. I'd just shoot that prodigy if I were you, but it's a valid option for limited shooters  even as a minor division.

 

40 minor is at way less of a disadvantage in a minor division than 9mm is in a major division. 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You could load a limited gun to minor, mount a dot on a plate in the dovetail and you'll only be down 2 rounds to a 9mm gun. It's really not world ending. I'd just shoot that prodigy if I were you, but it's a valid option for limited shooters  even as a minor division.

 

40 minor is at way less of a disadvantage in a minor division than 9mm is in a major division. 

 

Oh, I would shoot my prodigy. My point is I've got a limited gun that's kind of worthless at this point, but that really should have no bearing on a new division.

 

People seem to be getting caught up on the major minor thing because the title of this proposed division is limited optics. The crazy thing is people don't gripe too much about carry optics allowing a 59 Oz guns, I've never seen a person carry a59 Oz gun. In other words, the name doesn't have to mean everything about the division. I mean production ain't really production, single stack is really not single stack it's 1911, but limited optics has to have major because it's named limited LOL

[GigG]

20 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

AD = Area Director. You're making a case for a Rimfire division, write your AD. 

 

I have no idea why it wrote AD when I meant to type add. Other than my crappy typing skills and the fact I'm also playing online poker while I type this.

[GigG]

23 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

I never said I wanted to add a division.

 

[Dazhi]

If we apply the same logic that 2011's in CO will have no advantages over mass produced plastic guns, because Nils won Limited with a plastic minor gun, the conclusion will be having both major/minor won't make any meaningful difference in LO.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

If we apply the same logic that 2011's in CO will have no advantages over mass produced plastic guns, because Nils won Limited with a plastic minor gun, the conclusion will be having both major/minor won't make any meaningful difference in LO.

 

That's really not the same logic but whatever

[YVK]

Isn't the point of provisional divisions to allow the membership, through participation, non-participation, or patterns of participation, to provide a real life feedback on what membership wants or doesn't want? Nobody wanted to play in CO until rules were changed.  If 20 people showed up with 40sw LO guns and 2000 -  with Prodigies, Staccatos etc, it will a) be factually a minor division and b)  almost invariably be made formally a minor division when it is made permanent. 

All that people need to do is to shoot this division the way they think it should be for years to come, not the way they will get better scores over others during the provisional phase. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by YVK

[usmc1974]

Good lord, how did things ever get so crazy, and out of control? In 82 we had basically open and limited. Open with probably 38 super with a single port Wilson compensator and adjustable sites. I think they had a 9 Round magazine. The rest of the shot of 1911 That was Was a 45acp.  The power factor that was 175,  so 9 mm was automatically out of it I mean you could shoot 1 But nobody did.

[2011BLDR]

33 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

Good lord, how did things ever get so crazy, and out of control? In 82 we had basically open and limited. Open with probably 38 super with a single port Wilson compensator and adjustable sites. I think they had a 9 Round magazine. The rest of the shot of 1911 That was Was a 45acp.  The power factor that was 175,  so 9 mm was automatically out of it I mean you could shoot 1 But nobody did.

Your off by a decade 1992 limited was  provisional.... 1993 was when we had the first limited national champion...

[2011BLDR]

Limited was the first example of creating new Divisions that didn’t meet the originators vision. The original intent was to appease the old guys that were unhappy with:

·         Compensators

·         .38 Super

·         High-Capacity Magazines

·         Dot sights

They wanted a place for their 1911 .45ACP without any of the above.  The provisional rules were to open and 95% went with a high-cap gun  ( Glock 20/21, Para, TZ/P9 and later 2011’s after the # produced certifications were sent in to USPSA) by 1995 it was a 2011 dominated Division and still is.

 

Same thing can be said about Cary Optics originators wanted production with a dot because they couldn’t see iron sights anymore. Nobody shot it until some of the restrictions were lifted:

·         140mm mags

·         Weight

·         External Modifications

[usmc1974]

1 hour ago, 2011BLDR said:

Your off by a decade 1992 limited was  provisional.... 1993 was when we had the first limited national champion...

Maybe by a technical name, but I was shooting IPSC in 1982 and I know what we Was doing. You Either had a compensated 1911, or you had an uncomplicated 1911With a 175 power factor Plain and simple

[2011BLDR]

25 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

Maybe by a technical name, but I was shooting IPSC in 1982 and I know what we Was doing. You Either had a compensated 1911, or you had an uncomplicated 1911With a 175 power factor Plain and simple

Yes... every thing was heads up no divisions just USPSA until 1991/92 with the provisional Limited Division 

[Racinready300ex]

3 hours ago, YVK said:

 

All that people need to do is to shoot this division the way they think it should be for years to come, not the way they will get better scores over others during the provisional phase. 

 

That sounds like a thing lots of people will do.  Oh wait no,