USPSA Division Revamp Based on Data

[waktasz]

No

[Thomas H]

18 hours ago, twodownzero said:

=Then, recently, in the sentiment of everyone wanting a trophy, we have had so many recent rule changes that have done nothing to improve competitive equity or advance our sport.

 

I've heard this phrase a number of times recently, and I'm always confused as to what it means.

 

twodownzero, do you mind explaining what you mean by "competitive equity" with regard to USPSA?  I'd appreciate it.

[Kwontanamo]

This is too radical. If I were to change anything maybe PCC gets a magazine cap. 

[Zincwarrior]

10 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Well, the problem with CO is it's not particularly challenging.  A dot combined with minor power factor pretty much removes most of the difficulty in terms of the actual shooting.  That's great for the newbies with limited skill set, and the hoser types.  Really, it ends up being down to athletic ability and gamesmanship.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  It's just very different game than what we started with.  The thing I find funny is that a  lot of CO folks like to poke fun at PCC shooters and and joke about them shooting a pistol match with a rifle when their thing ain't much different in terms of difficulty.

How is that different than Open?  Frankly, to a production shooter, CO looks like Open, just at a lower price point using advances in technology. 

 

Our department has permitted CO as an approved option for several years now.  One can put CO on both large competition guns, and tiny carry guns. Its not the future, its the present. 

[Sinister4]

58 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

How is that different than Open?  Frankly, to a production shooter, CO looks like Open, just at a lower price point using advances in technology. 

 

 

 Slightly lesser mag capacity , no comps and lower price point    Hence "I want to shoot open but not a 7500.00 gun"   so CO is the way for those to go

Edited March 29, 2022 by Sinister4

[Boomstick303]

10 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Well, the problem with CO is it's not particularly challenging.

 

I too, find this statement interesting.  If dots were competing against irons, this statement might have some relevance.  The fact is a dot is just another aiming device.  You still have to obtain all of the shooting skills involved in the sport to be competitive as you are shooting against others who are also using a dot.  This would include learning how to index the firearm for every angle imaginable.  While I agree it is easier for someone to start from ground zero to be able to aim their gun properly quicker it does not take away from the fact they need to learn everything else that is involved to be competitive.

 

Loosing my dot when shooting at weird angles always reminds me I have things to work on every time, and trying to require a lost dot is not easier than acquiring irons when you loose it.  You almost never see an irons shooter swinging the end of their pistol in figure 8 motion trying to reacquire their aiming device.

 

I also find it funny when anyone pokes fun at PCC claiming how easy it is.  Sure shooting a rifle stationary is easier than shooting a pistol, but shooting a rifle on the move accurately and fast is a whole other skill set few people posses.  You see this every weekend when PCC shooters leave time on the table by shooting station to station instead of blending targets where shooting a pistol makes that same array easier to shoot on the move.  

 

At the end of the day each division has its intricacies and defined skill sets required to be successful.  Some of those skills intersect some do not.  I think this is one of the reason that USPSA has the strong following in regards to shooting sports.   

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Zincwarrior said:

How is that different than Open?  Frankly, to a production shooter, CO looks like Open, just at a lower price point using advances in technology. 

 

lack of a comp means CO has more recoil to manage, minor scoring means CO must aim more carefully, lower capacity means CO must also practice reloads. It's like open but more challenging and interesting and practical.... and way quieter.

 

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

lack of a comp means CO has more recoil to manage, minor scoring means CO must aim more carefully, lower capacity means CO must also practice reloads. It's like open but more challenging and interesting and practical.... and way quieter.

 

 

...um, and minor power factor makes no difference in terms of recoil?  That kinda defies the laws of physics.  Minor scoring isn't an impediment when everyone else in the division also shoots minor.  Same for mag capacity and reloads.  I agree that the physical part is more challenging in terms of stage break-down, navigation, reloads etc.  But the same can be said for Limited 10 or Production or Revolver.  I agree with boomstick.  Every division requires a slightly different combination of skills to be successful.  On my original point, I just find that when it comes to combining speed, power and accuracy in terms of actual shooting (vs. all the other elements), CO isn't as challenging as Limited or Open.

[waktasz]

You'd be wrong though. 
Shooting major is easy mode.

[Thomas H]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

 

...um, and minor power factor makes no difference in terms of recoil?  That kinda defies the laws of physics.  Minor scoring isn't an impediment when everyone else in the division also shoots minor.  Same for mag capacity and reloads.  I agree that the physical part is more challenging in terms of stage break-down, navigation, reloads etc.  But the same can be said for Limited 10 or Production or Revolver.  I agree with boomstick.  Every division requires a slightly different combination of skills to be successful.  On my original point, I just find that when it comes to combining speed, power and accuracy in terms of actual shooting (vs. all the other elements), CO isn't as challenging as Limited or Open.

Let's take those in order:

"minor power factor makes no difference in terms of recoil?"
Answer:  Open guns have comps, as you pointed out.  The muzzle movement is actually LESS on an open gun than a CO gun shooting minor.

 

"Minor scoring isn't an impediment when everyone else in the division also shoots minor. "

That's not how that works.  Minor scoring means that lack of accuracy hurts badly.  You cannot afford to drop points---because in minor scoring, the percentage of the total points you lose for poor accuracy is significant, which means that the penalty to your hit factor due to those lost points is also significant.  In other words, if your accuracy is worse than another minor shooter's accuracy, the amount that it hurts you is not small.  You can't afford to drop many points compared to the other shooters in your division.  With minor scoring, poor hits penalize you badly.

 

I'll note for this point and the next (compared to your original point), you suddenly switched from comparing CO division to other divisions, to only comparing CO within itself.  As a science teacher, I'd take points off for attempting to shift the basis of your logical argument.

 

"Same for mag capacity and reloads. "

The division requires you to reload numerous times during a match, that means that skill is important.  As such, if you don't practice that skill, it hurts you badly.  The fact that everyone in the division has this problem is irrelevant, because your original contention was that:

14 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Well, the problem with CO is it's not particularly challenging.

 

And yet, it has minor scoring and more reloads than Open, which require care in accuracy and practice in gun-handling skills.  Your comment wasn't about people in CO compared to each other, you said something about the division as a whole, which as people are pointing out, makes little logical sense.

 

"I agree that the physical part is more challenging in terms of stage break-down, navigation, reloads etc.  But the same can be said for Limited 10 or Production or Revolver. "

...which again wasn't the point. Unless you are ALSO claiming that L-10, Production, or Revolver are "not particularly challenging"?  After all, you just said the physical part is the same as those divisions...

 

"I just find that when it comes to combining speed, power and accuracy in terms of actual shooting (vs. all the other elements), CO isn't as challenging as Limited or Open."

...which makes me wonder if you have ever shot Open.  I mean, Open guns are louder, sure---but their felt recoil is less, the muzzle movement is less, the magazine capacity is more, and they also have dots.  Literally, in pretty much every single major match comparing roughly-equivalent skill levels, Open division beats CO when compared.   (Plus they get to use race holsters.)

 

So CO is easier, but Open gets better results?  That doesn't make sense.

 

The emphasis on "power" is interesting, I'll note---only in Limited is the recoil actually worse, and Limited gets major scoring so they can run alpha-charlie all day on targets and still shoot 90% of the points so that this massive recoil problem is mitigated.  (As we well know, from tons of data of people shooting Limited Major versus A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want, the major/minor scoring advantage strongly outweighs any recoil disadvantage.)

 

"Every division requires a slightly different combination of skills to be successful."

Yup.   And CO requires the accuracy and recoil-handling of Production, the reloads of Limited, and the ability to use a dot of Open.  How that makes it "not particularly challenging" (other than the dot which is great for people with failing eyesight) has thus far not been supported by data.

 

I'll note that the data we DO have says that people love shooting it, and the competitive level in that division is really, really HIGH.

 

[motosapiens]

without piling on, I would say that with CO, it is probably easier for most B/C shooters to hit targets when just standing there shooting carefully, and when they don't hit them, it's typically pretty obvious why if their eyes are open. Of course many of us also find hitting typical USPSA targets pretty easy with iron sights when there's no time pressure. the shots just aren't that difficult in this sport. The challenge comes in doing it faster and more accurately than the other guy.

 

For me, the biggest attraction of CO is that's the biggest field of competition around here. Pretty much all the local LEO's who shoot are in CO (many of them A or M). Our last local match we had the same # of shooters in CO as in Lim, Open and Prod combined.

 

I don't shoot open, but mrs moto, who is classified around 80% in CO, is starting to think about open. She's tried some guns and loves how much easier they are to shoot than CO. Much less dot movement, much better trigger, major scoring, she digs it. I tried to point out that everyone else will also have those advantages.

 

Quote

 On my original point, I just find that when it comes to combining speed, power and accuracy in terms of actual shooting (vs. all the other elements), CO isn't as challenging as Limited or Open.

How do you quantify that? Did you find that you easily got a higher classification in CO than in open or Limited? I haven't found that (yet).  Did you find that placed higher in the CO division than in Lim? Did you place higher overall in matches? (which is not really relevant, but still slightly interesting). fwiw, I haven't found that either...I'm typically further down in CO than I usually am in Limited. That may just mean I suck at shooting CO tho.

Edited March 29, 2022 by motosapiens

[Robertwil18]

Ive got to ask.....what possible good does this "conversation" even brining to the sport?  Right now everyone just seems to be thumping their chest with the "my division is the best", justifying why the others either are "too easy", "too saturated", or "don't make any sense" under the guise of this mythical "competitive equity" everyone discusses but can't seem to define or improve upon.

 

Every division has it's place and it's merits.  Pick one. Shoot it. Enjoy the training and competitive value you get from it expanding your skillset as a shooter.  The vast majority of members are not winning National titles, and are only truly competing at their local ranges.  Stop with the never ending expansion of divisions.  This is a sport, a game, based on "practical" shooting.  There will be gaming and gamesmanship.  If you don't want that, that's ok.  IDPA seems much more strict with "reality" and is available to you.... If you're that concerned about placing well in HOA, train more.....but.....it DOES NOT MATTER.  You're only competing against the others in your division shooting similar firearms platforms with similar scoring.  If anything, at this point I would petition Practiscore to completely get rid of overall standings so these kinds of "good ideas" can die once and for all.  

Edited March 29, 2022 by Robertwil18

[waktasz]

I have always said the reason Production is dying is because Practiscore presents the default results view as the overall, and people are migrating to CO, Open and PCC because finishing 24th at your local match even though you won your division sucks. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by waktasz

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

I have always said the reason Production is dying is because Practiscore presents the default results via as the overall, and people are migrating to CO, Open and PCC because finishing 24th at your local match even though you won your division sucks. 

 

I think this is a lot of it too. When I started (IDPA) we didn't have a overall and no one talked about it. I did still check to see if anyone beat me, but it wasn't the same as it is now. IDPA is almost all CO now. My local club there might be 1 or 2 guys not shooting CO in the top ten.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, Robertwil18 said:

Ive got to ask.....what possible good does this "conversation" even brining to the sport?  Right now everyone just seems to be thumping their chest with the "my division is the best", justifying why the others either are "too easy", "too saturated", or "don't make any sense" under the guise of this mythical "competitive equity" everyone discusses but can't seem to define or improve upon.

 

Some of this is joking, I'll give you s#!t about your division and then next month I might shoot it while giving others s#!t about the division I shot previously.

 

10 minutes ago, Robertwil18 said:

 

Every division has it's place and it's merits. 

 

Just not L-10 obviously. 

[waktasz]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think this is a lot of it too. When I started (IDPA) we didn't have a overall and no one talked about it. I did still check to see if anyone beat me, but it wasn't the same as it is now. IDPA is almost all CO now. My local club there might be 1 or 2 guys not shooting CO in the top ten.

 

SSP-15 will be interesting now in terms of the overall, but let's not dirty up this thread with IDPA talk  

[OPENB]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

I have always said the reason Production is dying is because Practiscore presents the default results view as the overall, and people are migrating to CO, Open and PCC because finishing 24th at your local match even though you won your division sucks. 

This is a reason. I always thought Production was the hardest division, not a "beginner" division by any means.

[Sinister4]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

I have always said the reason Production is dying is because Practiscore presents the default results view as the overall, and people are migrating to CO, Open and PCC because finishing 24th at your local match even though you won your division sucks. 

 Agreed, that is the thing that I find really crazy about the sport, the default view should be by division for sure, first thing one of my non gun friends asked my after viewing practiscore was " why are you shooting againist guys with rifles "  lol

[echotango]

4 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 CO isn't as challenging as Limited or Open.

100% disagree.  Open is a LOT easier than CO.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 hours ago, waktasz said:

I have always said the reason Production is dying is because Practiscore presents the default results view as the overall, and people are migrating to CO, Open and PCC because finishing 24th at your local match even though you won your division sucks. 

 

Can't speak for anyone else but being higher up in OA standings isn't why I left production.

[obsessiveshooter]

8 hours ago, waktasz said:

I have always said the reason Production is dying is because Practiscore presents the default results view as the overall, and people are migrating to CO, Open and PCC because finishing 24th at your local match even though you won your division sucks. 

I may not be competitive enough to actually practice, but I'm definitely competitive enough to hate scrolling down through the Overalls to find my name.   Limited for the Win!!!  

[BritinUSA]

There’s no reason why the Practiscore web-page could not use a cookie that stores your member number. The results page could then be set to default to whatever division it found that identifier.

 

They would need to add an option (if it’s not already there) where a person could enter their member number.

 

One of the cool features of the Competitor App was the option to compare my scores with a select bunch of people in different divisions. I could also change my division to Open to see where I would have finished in that division using my CO setup.

[HCH]

18 hours ago, waktasz said:

I have always said the reason Production is dying is because Practiscore presents the default results view as the overall, and people are migrating to CO, Open and PCC because finishing 24th at your local match even though you won your division sucks. 

I like it when I make the top 10 with a SS gun

[waktasz]

I've won matches overall when shooting Production but it's not possible when good shooters shooting "better" divisions show up. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

As the talent pool increases and shooters get better at the respective divisions you can’t help but to look at the overall standings. 
but for relatively new shooters, people learning to improve just look at your standings in your own division,And hopefully that will help motivate you to improve your skills