Limited Minor

[rowdyb]

If the scoring advantage in Major is to reward dealing with "power" then my question is the felt difference at the gun, and the speed at which you can shoot with all that extra power different enough from minor to warrant the scoring advantage it has?

 

exclude what 9mm does but instead ask does 40 do enough more, with today's guns and loads to still be worth that scoring differential?

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

If the scoring advantage in Major is to reward dealing with "power" then my question is the felt difference at the gun, and the speed at which you can shoot with all that extra power different enough from minor to warrant the scoring advantage it has?

 

exclude what 9mm does but instead ask does 40 do enough more, with today's guns and loads to still be worth that scoring differential?

 

I have 2011 guns in both 9 and 40.  With minor power factor ammo, the 9 is significantly easier to handle and flatter and faster shooting than the .40.  It's not even close.  So, I'd say the scoring differential makes sense.  Now, maybe if you compare major 9 to .40 in a Limited gun, it might be a different story.  And really, if you want to change the rules, rather than jacking around with the scoring, I think it would make a lot more sense and be a lot better solution to just allow major 9 and score them both the same.

[shred]

Major PF has always been about power on the target, not recoil to the shooter.  see: Open Div, any early rulebooks.

 

These days, the thought among people that do that sort of thing for reals is "good" 9mm loads are as "effective' as" .40 loads with comparably decent shot placement.

 

"Good" 9mm loads are not 125 PF.  D's are not good shot placement.

 

Want to even out 9 and 40 in limited?  20 rounds max in a mag, 140+ PF scores 5-4-1.  Major & minor scoring still available if you really want.

 

Annoys everybody, so good to go 

[cnote]

125 pf is 125 PF whether it 9, 40 or 45 (probably see the bullet going down range)

165 is 165 is 165

125 doesn't equal 165

mag capacity is different for 9 vs 40 vs 45

all have their advantages and disadvantages

What is the next demand, it's not fair he shoots reloaded 147 9mm versus my white box 115!!!!!

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by cnote

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Major PF has always been about power on the target, not recoil to the shooter.  see: Open Div, any early rulebooks.

 

These days, the thought among people that do that sort of thing for reals is "good" 9mm loads are as "effective' as" .40 loads with comparably decent shot placement.

 

"Good" 9mm loads are not 125 PF.  D's are not good shot placement.

 

Want to even out 9 and 40 in limited?  20 rounds max in a mag, 140+ PF scores 5-4-1.  Major & minor scoring still available if you really want.

 

Annoys everybody, so good to go 

 

Well, I'm not annoyed at all.  I think those are all excellent points, although I'd be for bumping the PF up a bit to maybe 150. Federal 9mm +P+ 115g at 1300 fps = 149.5 and the 9mm +P 147g at 1050 fps = 154.4.

[rowdyb]

I only have like 6 months of shooting Lim major, so I am not a good person to use their own personal experience to truly think of a way for there to be closer parity between minor and major competitors in Limited. I just know my draws and splits and transitions were no slower with my Atlas Titan than with my Shadow 2. So if a Limited shooter isn't any slower because of shooting the gun then why reward them? That was my thinking and it was evidently to focused on the speed part of the triad. You know, just me rambling and train of thought pouring out.

 

And yeah, I did confuse felt recoil as needing more attention than a very simplistic calculation of power at the target. Now if minor got 170mm mags in Lim then that might be interesting in a head to head.......

 

But yeah, no dog in the fight and just an interesting mental exercise. If I was king of uspsa it would be pretty low down on my list.

[Jeff226]

9 major will always be a terrible idea in limited...please let it die.  9 +p+ is a nearly equally bad idea. 

 

Splitting limited into separate minor and major divisions is the only true solution.  Minor needs to stay at 125 pf so factory ammo makes pf.  Major should be raised back up to 175 for the same reason and also so the "real men" can be real men.

 

A far as the real world people, .40 lead roundnose @ 165 doesn't kill you any better than .355 lead roundnose @ 125...even with the blue coating.

 

 

[Brooke]

7 hours ago, cnote said:

What is the next demand, it's not fair he shoots reloaded 147 9mm versus my white box 115!!!!!

Absolutely. You can't expect those shooting factory ammo to compete with designer ammo made by competition fanatics who tune their ammo to guns and personal preference. Where is the equity in that.

 

Factory ammo should be rewarded as 6-5-4 because it costs the shooter more and delivers less. Poor people deserve some love too. Too many people who reload are being given a terrific advantage over "regular" guys. They get all the good looking women too. This needs to stop,

[ddc]

3 hours ago, Brooke said:

Absolutely. You can't expect those shooting factory ammo to compete with designer ammo made by competition fanatics who tune their ammo to guns and personal preference. Where is the equity in that.

 

Factory ammo should be rewarded as 6-5-4 because it costs the shooter more and delivers less. Poor people deserve some love too. Too many people who reload are being given a terrific advantage over "regular" guys. They get all the good looking women too. This needs to stop,

 

Ok but you can't get scored 6-5-4 AND get all the good looking women. You have to choose one or the other.

[shred]

125 PF was based on Factory .38 Special.  That's as dead as Modified Division for matches.

 

Most cheap (in normal times) factory 9x19 ammo is above 135 PF.

 

IPSC has different PFs for different divisions if we really want that.

 

[Cuz]

46 minutes ago, shred said:

125 PF was based on Factory .38 Special.  That's as dead as Modified Division for matches.

 

Most cheap (in normal times) factory 9x19 ammo is above 135 PF.

 

IPSC has different PFs for different divisions if we really want that.

 

I have a vague recollection of Winchester White Box chrono graphing at 120-125 some years ago. 
 

In fact, didn’t USPSA issue a ruling that it wasn’t supposed to be used as calibration ammo at matches quite a few years ago because it wasn’t making minor?  I think it was about 10 years ago roughly. 
 

 

damn, and I swore I wasn’t going to participate in this thread…

Edited July 12, 2021 by Cuz

[Schutzenmeister]

2 minutes ago, Cuz said:

In fact, didn’t USPSA issue a ruling that it wasn’t supposed to be used as calibration ammo at matches quite a few years ago because it wasn’t making minor?  I think it was about 10 years ago roughly. 

 

Uhh ... No.  Point of fact:  You WANT your calibration ammo to be slightly sub minor to ensure a minor load at 125 will work.  Reference: Appendix C1, #2.

[shred]

Winchester 115 FMJ WB and USA Ready and USA Forged so on are listed at 136.8 PF on their website

Winchester 124 GR WB is listed at 141 PF.

Winchester 147 GR WB is listed at 145 PF.

 

If it any random lot actually makes that in your gun?  YMMV.

 

[Cuz]

2 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Uhh ... No.  Point of fact:  You WANT your calibration ammo to be slightly sub minor to ensure a minor load at 125 will work.  Reference: Appendix C1, #2.

 

1 hour ago, shred said:

Winchester 115 FMJ WB and USA Ready and USA Forged so on are listed at 136.8 PF on their website

Winchester 124 GR WB is listed at 141 PF.

Winchester 147 GR WB is listed at 145 PF.

 

If it any random lot actually makes that in your gun?  YMMV.

 

I guess that makes it pretty clear how little I know on the subject. 
 

Carry on gentlemen…

[mikeg1005]

Major vs. Minor has almost nothing to do with difficulty of shooting the gun.  Ask anyone who shoots SS, its all about stage plan/benefit of extra rounds.  There is 0 advantage to having 2-3 extra rounds of 9mm vs. having minor scoring handicap in Limited.  No one shoots minor at the top (except Nils last year but I am like 95% sure its because his gun isn't made in major).  

 

Can we please stop discussing changing the only division that make sense (outside of open) with arbitrary s#!t? LOL. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I think the broad majority of shooters would agree Limited doesn’t need to be changed , looked at , or improved. 
there nothing wrong with it. 
 

[Jeff226]

3 hours ago, shred said:

Winchester 115 FMJ WB and USA Ready and USA Forged so on are listed at 136.8 PF on their website

Winchester 124 GR WB is listed at 141 PF.

Winchester 147 GR WB is listed at 145 PF.

 

If it any random lot actually makes that in your gun?  YMMV.

 

WWB is so spotty I wouldn't trust published numbers anyhow.  Most blazer, PMC, Remington, and Federal are in the mid to low 130s.  Somebody buying factory ammo shouldn't have to sweat the chrono.  

 

1 hour ago, mikeg1005 said:

Major vs. Minor has almost nothing to do with difficulty of shooting the gun.  Ask anyone who shoots SS, its all about stage plan/benefit of extra rounds.  There is 0 advantage to having 2-3 extra rounds of 9mm vs. having minor scoring handicap in Limited.  No one shoots minor at the top (except Nils last year but I am like 95% sure its because his gun isn't made in major).  

 

Can we please stop discussing changing the only division that make sense (outside of open) with arbitrary s#!t? LOL. 

That is why the division doesn't make sense and needs to change.  

[ltdmstr]

3 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

That is why the division doesn't make sense and needs to change.  

 

Who cares that nobody at the top shoots minor.  Means absolutely nothing to me or most other people who shoot Limited.  And why does anything need to change?  As you can see from many of the comments here, a lot of us like things just fine the way they are.

[Jeff226]

7 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Who cares that nobody at the top shoots minor.  Means absolutely nothing to me or most other people who shoot Limited.  And why does anything need to change?  As you can see from many of the comments here, a lot of us like things just fine the way they are.

Who cares what you like?  There are still people who think it is fine to huddle on the tundra in grass huts and exist on yak fat...most of what goes on in the world means absolutely nothing to them either.  As long as there is still a limited major for you to compete in, why is it that you would care enough to oppose a separate limited minor?  

 

If minor is at a permanent competitive disadvantage, then there is no sense maintaining this farce that minor and major should be in the same division for some unknown reason.

 

 

[outerlimits]

17 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Who cares what you like?  There are still people who think it is fine to huddle on the tundra in grass huts and exist on yak fat...most of what goes on in the world means absolutely nothing to them either.  As long as there is still a limited major for you to compete in, why is it that you would care enough to oppose a separate limited minor?  

 

If minor is at a permanent competitive disadvantage, then there is no sense maintaining this farce that minor and major should be in the same division for some unknown reason.

 

 

dude, stay in yer lane and shoot production.  

[Jeff226]

9 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

dude, stay in yer lane and shoot production.  

 

Lame.

 

I hang out in CO when I don't feel like loading .40.  

[ltdmstr]

28 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Who cares what you like?  There are still people who think it is fine to huddle on the tundra in grass huts and exist on yak fat...most of what goes on in the world means absolutely nothing to them either.  As long as there is still a limited major for you to compete in, why is it that you would care enough to oppose a separate limited minor?  

 

If minor is at a permanent competitive disadvantage, then there is no sense maintaining this farce that minor and major should be in the same division for some unknown reason.

 

Yep, that's just what we need.  Another division.

[Jeff226]

1 minute ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Yep, that's just what we need.  Another division.

 

There is no harm in another division especially when it is the division most people want and it actually solves the problem.  If they don't go all minor (except open) then production will become limited minor anyway...we are already half way there.

 

 What exactly does allowing 9 major in limited fix?  Actually, don't worry about it...if major is significantly more difficult for you than minor in a 2011 pistol you probably have more important things to think about.  Good luck!

 

On 7/11/2021 at 8:22 PM, ltdmstr said:

 

I have 2011 guns in both 9 and 40.  With minor power factor ammo, the 9 is significantly easier to handle and flatter and faster shooting than the .40.  It's not even close.  

 

[ltdmstr]

I wasn't advocating changing the rules.  Just suggesting that having everyone shoot major would be better than changing the scoring.  And if you can't tell the difference between 9 and 40 in a 2011, maybe you need to chrono your loads.  As for a division most people want, sure.  Most of the complaints are about too many divisions already and stupid rule changes.  Kinda like what you're suggesting now.

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

There is no harm in another division especially when it is the division most people want and it actually solves the problem. 

 

 

a) nobody wants limited minor except little girls.

b) it doesn’t solve any problem. there is no problem with limited.

c) more divisions are bad. there are already way too many.