MHicks Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 I'm not keeping track of what guns and calibers new shooters are showing up with at matches. Sometimes I'll notice. At first I was surprised at all of the discussions about 9mm CZ Tac Sports online because I thought why would anyone buy the 9mm models. Many of the for sale or want to buy listings were for 9mm. Eventually I realized that there are a lot more plinkers and shooters who shoot once or twice a year vs match shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: Nobody was talking about buying a single stack to compete in limited...what a stupid point. Thread is called "limited minor" not "which single stack for limited" If the rules have choices for power factor, and one power factor is always the "wrong" choice, then why pretend there are choices? This is a backwards understanding of the rules. In Open, Limited, SSTK, & Revo, Major Power factor scoring is ALLOWED. In those divisions, you are given the option to shoot Major and reap the scoring benefits associated with it. It is no different than an optic being ALLOWED in Open. You are given the option to use an optic, and not doing so is ill-advised. Edited July 13, 2021 by Ssanders224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, RJH said: You mean those rules that favor power factor in divisions like open, limited 10, revolver.... Nobody pretends there's a choice, everyone knows there's a right answer and a wrong answer. There's just a few that want to change the rules to suit them to do what they want instead of buying the gun that fits within and takes advantage of the rules, or shooting a division that their gun is better suited to. So yes you can buy the wrong gun even if it still fits in the division PS don't get your panties in a wad because you asked a silly question LOL My panties aren't in a wad. Pulling a strawman that far out of left field is stupid. The whole DVC premise is dead, I agree. I am fine with that...I just want the rules to be cleaned up to reflect it. 4 minutes ago, motosapiens said: limited minor and single stack for limited are equally stupid ideas. There are many different ways to be wrong. I am sure you have experience in most ways of being wrong...saying they are equally stupid is one of them. 3 minutes ago, MHicks said: I'm not keeping track of what guns and calibers new shooters are showing up with at matches. Sometimes I'll notice. At first I was surprised at all of the discussions about 9mm CZ Tac Sports online because I thought why would anyone buy the 9mm models. Many of the for sale or want to buy listings were for 9mm. Eventually I realized that there are a lot more plinkers and shooters who shoot once or twice a year vs match shooters. Plinkers and once a year shooters are not buying CZ Tacs and 2011s for limited...sorry...not even close to being true. 2 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said: This is a backwards understanding of the rules. In Open, Limited, SSTK, & Revo, Major Power factor scoring is ALLOWED. In those divisions, you are given the option to shoot Major and reap the scoring benefits associated with it. It is no different than an optic being ALLOWED in Open. You are given the option to use an optic, and not doing so is ill-advised. No, my understanding is just fine. The sport was built on DVC. In major vs minor scoring, there is not enough D and V to make up for the benefit major gets for its supposed C. There should be benefits to reap in choosing either power factor...not just additional benefits for shooting major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) Dup Edited July 13, 2021 by Jeff226 Double Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: Plinkers and once a year shooters are not buying CZ Tacs and 2011s for limited...sorry...not even close to being true. I know a guy who comes to three or four matches a year and has a TSO (granted, in .40), and some other CZs in 9mm. There are tons of shooters with fancy kit who treat competition as a recreational activity rather than a sport. Heck, I have several thousand dollars in guns I use as range toys that would be good in other competitions I don't take seriously enough to do regularly. My clays shotgun comes out of the safe once or twice a year, and half the time, I'm just hauling a friend up to the range and blasting hand-thrown birds for fun. Edited July 13, 2021 by Fishbreath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHicks Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 "Plinkers and once a year shooters are not buying CZ Tacs and 2011s for limited...sorry...not even close to being true." Jeff226 I'm saying they are buying them for regular range use, not for competition. There are more of these shooters then competitors. I was surprised that people were buying guns like Tac Sports to shoot outside of competition but they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: No, my understanding is just fine. The sport was built on DVC. In major vs minor scoring, there is not enough D and V to make up for the benefit major gets for its supposed C. There should be benefits to reap in choosing either power factor...not just additional benefits for shooting major. You're talking in circles. There ARE benefits. More capacity, less recoil, etc. Within the confines of the sport, whether or not those are beneficial enough for you to choose Minor over Major is 100% up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said: You're talking in circles. There ARE benefits. More capacity, less recoil, etc. Within the confines of the sport, whether or not those are beneficial enough for you to choose Minor over Major is 100% up to you. No, I am not talking in circles. If those benefits actually existed, minor would be competitive at the major matches. It has been documented for years that minor is not competitive at major matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 No one shoots minor in Open or L10, no one shoots major in Revo. Please address those issues before messing with the biggest (maybe 2nd now?) division in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Jeff226 said: Then who is buying all of these 9mm 2011s and CZ TSOs in 9mm? Who are these people constantly trying to change production into limited minor? It certainly isn't noobs who never shot production. 1. Tactical people and general gun enthusiasts. 2. HQ in effort to make a place for people to shoot 'competitively' with non competitive gear, in effort to bring in more money to HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: No, I am not talking in circles. If those benefits actually existed, minor would be competitive at the major matches. It has been documented for years that minor is not competitive at major matches. Ok? And who care? Limited is the biggest division in USPSA (or at least was last year or so). Why are we attempting to cater to people with minor guns? If one cannot be bothered to buy competitive equipment for a division then why does EVERYONE who chose to do this have to now suffer and adjust what they're running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Jeff226 said: No, I am not talking in circles. If those benefits actually existed, minor would be competitive at the major matches. It has been documented for years that minor is not competitive at major matches. So your presupposition is that the "benefits" of shooting Minor should make it competitively equal to Major in all instances? To take from your "DVC" example earlier, you are rewarded for more "V". It's not SUPPOSED to be competitively equal. My wife shoots Minor in SSTK because she feels that 9MM recoil is beneficial for her compared to .40 or 45. That's her choice. You can make the same choice. OR you can choose more "V" and be rewarded for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: Why are we attempting to cater to people with minor guns? If one cannot be bothered to buy competitive equipment for a division then why does EVERYONE who chose to do this have to now suffer and adjust what they're running? YOU'RE NOT WOKE ENOUGH, MAN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said: Ok? And who care? Limited is the biggest division in USPSA (or at least was last year or so). Why are we attempting to cater to people with minor guns? If one cannot be bothered to buy competitive equipment for a division then why does EVERYONE who chose to do this have to now suffer and adjust what they're running? Why attempt to cater to anybody with any gun? Why not only allow 2011s with comps, 9 major, and optic required? Screw everybody else with their choices! Better yet, lets make USPSA PCC only...why cater to handguns period?? A limited gun in minor is competitive equipment. Why do we insist those be stuck in a division with a permanent scoring disadvantage to .40 caliber...a cartridge nobody wants unless they are super mega serious about USPSA limited? Nobody has to adjust anything. If they have limited major guns they keep shooting limited major. If they have a limited minor gun then they shoot in the separate limited minor division. It is so simple I can't figure out why it is so confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 29 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: Pulling a strawman that far out of left field is stupid. <emphasis added> Please, y'all. Keep up this antagonistic, rude language. I'm dying for a reason to shut this down. Please. Do it. **I know it's a little thin, but it could be enough! I'm so sick of the weekly "Limited Minor vs. Limited Major" threads I could puke. If it keeps up I may start taking hostages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Just now, Jeff226 said: Why attempt to cater to anybody with any gun? Why not only allow 2011s with comps, 9 major, and optic required? Screw everybody else with their choices! Better yet, lets make USPSA PCC only...why cater to handguns period?? A limited gun in minor is competitive equipment. Why do we insist those be stuck in a division with a permanent scoring disadvantage to .40 caliber...a cartridge nobody wants unless they are super mega serious about USPSA limited? Nobody has to adjust anything. If they have limited major guns they keep shooting limited major. If they have a limited minor gun then they shoot in the separate limited minor division. It is so simple I can't figure out why it is so confusing. Open division and PCC covers your first paragraph. Minor is not competitive in limited compared to major, the 2-3 round advantage is not worth minor scoring. With 20-22+1 off the start you will ALWAYS find a place to do 1 if not 2 reloads. You are the only person I've ever heard of suggesting we should have a limited minor division... so I can see how USPSA would not entertain such a concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 58 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said: it is no different than an optic being ALLOWED in Open. You are given the option to use an optic, and not doing so is ill-advised. i think we need to change the rules to create an open without optic division. people are showing up to matches with ported barrels on small guns. It's too big of a disadvantage for them to be in open, so we need a new division to further fragment the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said: You are the only person I've ever heard of suggesting we should have a limited minor division... so I can see how USPSA would not entertain such a concept. There are always people living off the grid I suppose. I don't start a majority of the limited minor threads here so there is at least one other person keeping IMA45DV8 entertained. The USPSA is entertaining the concept of making the whole thing minor PF except for open over some mutli-year transition. So there is apparently a flood of demand for limited minor among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: A limited gun in minor is competitive equipment. not in USPSA. and that is intentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: .40 caliber...a cartridge nobody wants unless they are super mega serious about USPSA limited? all 300 officers at my federal agency carry .40. At least one county sheriff in my area uses 40 (i pick up their once-fired brass). Most modern guns are offered in 40, and people buy them when they want more power than 9mm provides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: A limited gun in minor is competitive equipment. Why do we insist those be stuck in a division with a permanent scoring disadvantage to .40 caliber... This is the fallacy I alluded to earlier... that every pistol and cartridge combo deserves it's own comfy (competitive) place to compete in the sport. Does your idea hold up for Open too? "I want to shoot a 9mm Minor 2011 with a frame mounted optic. Why should I be handicapped by Major scoring?!??!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Just now, Ssanders224 said: This is the fallacy I alluded to earlier... that every pistol and cartridge combo deserves it's own comfy (competitive) place to compete in the sport. Does your idea hold up for Open too? "I want to shoot a 9mm Minor 2011 with a frame mounted optic. Why should I be handicapped by Major scoring?!??!" You are missing the point. DVC says minor and major should both be competitive, that is why there is a power factor formula to begin with. The fallacy is that DVC still matters. Carry optics is gradually becoming open minor just like production is becoming limited minor. I am all for having power factors in separate divisions. So yes, I am all for you being able to shoot a 2011 in an open/optic minor division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) I can't be competitive in open with out a dot we should have Limited with comps. I can't be competitive in open with out a comp, we should have open with out comps I can't be competitive in open with minor we should have open minor I can't be competitive in open with 140's we should have mid cap open I can't be competitive in open with a skinny gun we should have OG-Open I can't be competitive in open with a slide mounted dot. We should have SAO-CO I can't be competitive in open with a 40, we should have a division for that I can't be competitive in Limited with a minor gun we should have limited minor I can't be competitive in limited with a 45 we should have Lords-Limited I can't be competitive in limited without a 2011 we should have striker limited I can't be competitive in any division with my carry gun we should have a carry division I can't be competitive in CO with a plastic gun we should have CO light and heavy like the rest of the world. I can't be competitive at SS nats with a minor gun it should be two divisions I can't be competitive in Revo with a major gun it should be two divisions I can't shoot a revolver in CO, we should have Revo optics I can't be competitive in PCC with irons it should be a division. I can't be competitive in......... There should probably be a speed loader division for revo too. Can't believe I missed that one Edited July 13, 2021 by Racinready300ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: The USPSA is entertaining the concept of making the whole thing minor PF except for open over some mutli-year transition. So there is apparently a flood of demand for limited minor among other things. ... no they aren't. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jeff226 said: So yes, I am all for you being able to shoot a 2011 in an open/optic minor division. You can do that right now, in open. Nothing is stopping you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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