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Limited Minor


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4 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Why else would you insist that minor stays in a division with a scoring problem making it not competitive?  What other reason is there?  It isn't bait, it isn't an insult...what is the motivation.  You have yet to answer.

 

shooting minor in Limited or SS is a choice. you get more capacity and less recoil and worse scoring. No one is forcing you to make that choice.

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Just now, Fishbreath said:

 

I don't shoot Limited, so it doesn't pad my results either way, but I do care about stable, consistent rules. Fiddling with the rulebook yet again violates that principle, and it sounds like you're proposing it to solve something (major being better than minor in Limited) that I don't think is even remotely in the top five problems in the USPSA rulebook. In fact, I don't think it's a problem at all. I shoot in Revolver, where minor is transparently better than major, and I don't think that's a problem either.

All of the rules for limited minor are already in the book.

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1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

All of the rules for limited minor are already in the book.

 

They aren't, actually, because there's no appendix for 'limited minor' recognized separately from 'limited', if we're going to be unduly literal about it.

Edited by Fishbreath
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I think we need to create a new division for limited 45. I am disadvantaged because the rules currently mean my 140mm mags have less capacity. This hurts my feelings and I demand reparations, and equity!!

 

(equity = equal results regardless of individual effort).

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and we need a new division for revolver major. I have a 6-shot revolver and I'm not competitive in revo against the 8-shot guns. This makes me cry and gave me PTSD. I am organizing a march to bring attention to the years of the man holding me down.

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2 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

They aren't, actually, because there's no appendix for 'limited minor' recognized separately from 'limited', if we're going to be unduly literal about it.

And you are going to base your opposition to what would be the largest division in USPSA on the unduly literal fact that the book lacks one sentence saying they are separate divisions?  That is the great instability?

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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

and we need a new division for revolver major. I have a 6-shot revolver and I'm not competitive in revo against the 8-shot guns. This makes me cry and gave me PTSD. I am organizing a march to bring attention to the years of the man holding me down.

Show me the overwhelming demand for revolver major...or even participation numbers that indicate it is popular...and I will consider it.  .45 acp anything for that matter.

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5 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Why else would you insist that minor stays in a division with a scoring problem making it not competitive?  What other reason is there?  It isn't bait, it isn't an insult...what is the motivation.  You have yet to answer.

 

 

Just a thought, if minor wasn't a thing going sub major means no score. Doesn't really seem like a change that's needed. 

 

Obviously we don't need yet another division with out any talk of how or when to get rid of divisions that aren't working.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

And you are going to base your opposition to what would be the largest division in USPSA on the unduly literal fact that the book lacks one sentence saying they are separate divisions?  That is the great instability?

 

You started it with the undue literalness. What I oppose is pointless changing of the rules. Adding a division is a rules change, whether you like that phrasing or not, and given that the only person I've seen shooting Limited Minor seriously in four years of USPSA was a 3-gunner practicing for a big 3-gun match, I'm going to stick with 'pointless' too.

 

That's all I have to say on the matter.

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Just now, Jeff226 said:

Show me the overwhelming demand for revolver major...or even participation numbers that indicate it is popular...and I will consider it.  .45 acp anything for that matter.

meh. show me the demand for lim minor from serious competitors who aren't noobs getting their feet wet.

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1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Just a thought, if minor wasn't a thing going sub major means no score. Doesn't really seem like a change that's needed. 

 

Obviously we don't need yet another division with out any talk of how or when to get rid of divisions that aren't working.

 

Having a floor is fine, minor pf is pretty close to off the shelf factory ammo, and it is consistent with IDPA and 3 gun.

 

The computer can handle 100 more divisions, adding one and letting the rest die naturally won't break the system.

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1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

meh. show me the demand for lim minor from serious competitors who aren't noobs getting their feet wet.

 

looking at the results for the last major I shot, there were 4 lim minor shooters out of 32 overall, including 2 C's and 2 A's. Seems like about the same level of demand as for 45 limited.

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33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

meh. show me the demand for lim minor from serious competitors who aren't noobs getting their feet wet.

Ask the people at USPSA HQ...you don't even have to take my word for it.

 

Or Shred, page 1

 

Edited by Jeff226
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8 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

And you are going to base your opposition to what would be the largest division in USPSA on the unduly literal fact that the book lacks one sentence saying they are separate divisions?  That is the great instability?

Well, that little "lacks one sentence" is kind of a big deal when you're talking about creating a new division. And (rules being rules) "literally" is how they're supposed to be read.  

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2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

looking at the results for the last major I shot, there were 4 lim minor shooters out of 32 overall, including 2 C's and 2 A's. Seems like about the same level of demand as for 45 limited.

Yeah, why would you go to a major match and shoot minor pf in Limited...it isn't competitive unless you get lucky with the stages.  That is the whole point of the thread.

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I went back through four old match results from 2016 to 2019 (the June match each year, where we typically see the most attendance) at the club where I volunteer, to filter out any COVID/ammo shortage effects.

 

Limited was usually on the order of 10-20 participants. Limited minor was about 40% to 60% of Limited participation over those matches. Of the Limited minor shooters, about 80%-90% were unclassified or didn't have a member number. Of the classified/member Limited minor shooters, only one was frequently near the top of the leaderboard, and he was the 3-gunner I mentioned above.

Edited by Fishbreath
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8 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

I went back through four old match results from 2016 to 2019 (the June match each year, where we typically see the most attendance) at the club where I volunteer, to filter out any COVID/ammo shortage effects.

 

Limited was usually on the order of 10-20 participants. Limited minor was about 40% to 60% of Limited participation over those matches. Of the Limited minor shooters, about 80%-90% were unclassified or didn't have a member number. Of the classified/member Limited minor shooters, only one was frequently near the top of the leaderboard, and he was the 3-gunner I mentioned above.

 

That makes it seem like limited minor shooters don't really take the game all that seriously. Weird. 

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No it sounds like potential new members that showed up with a Production gun and just a couple of magazines and were placed in Limited so they would not have to reload after every 10 rounds,

 

Do that analysis on most L1 matches and you would see similar results.

 

Edited by BritinUSA
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1 hour ago, outerlimits said:

grow the sport has created this mess, period.

 

But has the sport grown or have we just added new members?  More clubs? Not seeing a rush of clubs to become affiliated.  More helpers, not really, same people showing up at the clubs to do setup and tear down.  What we see is more people wanting to "participate", not take time to learn anything, and filling up spots where established shooter used to be, basically edging some people out.  Local matches are getting to be like area matches, registration opens and in an hour it's full.  Snooze you lose.

 

Yes, some different people ae stepping up as we older guys start to fade away, and I love and cherish every one of them.  But the shoot & scoot mentality is still strong.

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18 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

No it sounds like potential new members that showed up with a Production gun and just a couple of magazines and were placed in Limited so they would not have to reload after every 10 rounds,

 

Do that analysis on most L1 matches and you would see similar results.

 

 

 

This.  I'm in the same area as Fishbreath and usually, as a squad of older stablished shooters, the MD's will try to put them with us, and our recommendations is Ltd Minor, not production so they can shoot and not worry about reloads - and since most of them bring (at most) 3 mags with 2 holders, "stoke em up top the max, bubba."

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Growth only works when there is room to grow. We are in a bubble; There are a finite number of ranges, and new ranges are rare. There are criteria for hosting USPSA matches. Once you eliminate those ranges that do not, or cannot, or will not meet that criteria, how many potential ranges are left?

 

Its a regional thing. Some regions will have more clubs than others, so each region of the country will have a potential upper limit on the number of USPSA competitors that it can absorb.

 

Once that limit is reached than growth will stop, people will be unable to shoot at their local matches. It’s starting to happen already and if not for the ammo shortage it would be even more prevalent.

 

By ‘growing the sport’ without regard to its potential limits, they could have doomed the sport to fail.

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One plus to the ammo shortage is if I forget to register the minute a match goes live I can still get in. Kind of nice really. 

 

Guys who don't have to shoot 20 man squads or not shoot at all because you're waitlisted from your local match don't know what they're missing. 

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2 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

Yeah, why would you go to a major match and shoot minor pf in Limited...it isn't competitive unless you get lucky with the stages.  That is the whole point of the thread.

It's more competitive than you think, it's just that no one good chooses to do it unless they are shooting their production gun in a match where production isn't offered. The reason they don't do it is because there are 4 other divisions where 9mm minor is favored by the rules, plus SS where 9mm minor is a viable option that has been used to win many Area matches.

 

Based on 2020 race gun nationals, minor was good enough for 4th in limited, and that guy would probably have won shooting major. So shooting minor costs you 3 places.  Why not just give all minor shooters the option to claim they placed 3 places higher than their actual placing, and call it good? If you get 10th at a section match, you can say you got 7th. That should make everyone happy.

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