Limited Minor

[dansedgli]

Jeff226 has 226 posts. 

 

Most of them complaining about 40 dating way back to 2019. 

 

What's your uspsa number? Who are we dealing with. 

 

 

 

[twodownzero]

There never was any intention for minor to be competitive in any division where major was recognized.  Before minor revolver allowed 8 shots, Single Stack was the only division where that was even hypothetically possible and before about 10 years ago, virtually noone shot minor in Single Stack despite the hypothetical possibility it could be competitive.  It was virtually unheard of to see minor guns in any division besides Production in those days.

 

It has been relatively recent rule changes that made this a thing in our sport.  Before then, major was such an obvious and significant benefit in scoring that Production was specifically made the way it is so that 9mm could have a place to compete in our sport at all.  Those of you new to the sport may not realize this.  Those of us who have been here a while have seen minor divisions take off and revolver transformed from a nearly-all major division to a minor division.

Edited July 13, 2021 by twodownzero

[Ssanders224]

2 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Are you serious?  If they didn't intend for them to be competitive they would have never put them in the same competitive divisions and/or came up with a scoring systems that attempts to make them comparable.

This is where you get off track. 
USPSA didn’t “put them in the same divisions”, some divisions just ALLOW major power factor and thereby an advantage in scoring over minor. 
 

I legitimately don’t know what part of USPSA scoring you think attempts to make major and minor “comparable” or competitive with each other. The scoring system awards major PF by definition. They are not, and are not intended to be competitive against each other within a division. 
 

This thread has devolved into complete clown shoes. So, I’ll end my tenure in the thread with this...
 

Defining any two otherwise identical divisions solely by major/minor scoring would 100% de facto kill the “major” division. NO ONE would choose to shoot Limited “Major”. So, you should restructure your argument into “major should only exist in Open” or something along those lines. That at least sounds logical. 

 

 

[Ssanders224]

3 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

There never was any intention for major to be competitive in any division where major was recognized.  Before minor revolver allowed 8 shots, Single Stack was the only division where that was even hypothetically possible and before about 10 years ago, virtually noone shot minor in Single Stack despite the hypothetical possibility it could be competitive.  It was virtually unheard of to see minor guns in any division besides Production in those days.

 

It has been relatively recent rule changes that made this a thing in our sport.  Before then, major was such an obvious and significant benefit in scoring that Production was specifically made the way it is so that 9mm could have a place to compete in our sport at all.  Those of you new to the sport may not realize this.  Those of us who have been here a while have seen minor divisions take off and revolver transformed from a nearly-all major division to a minor division.

Say it louder for the ones in the back!!

[twodownzero]

1 minute ago, Ssanders224 said:

Say it louder for the ones in the back!!

 

Sorry, I had to correct the first sentence.  There never was any intention for MINOR to be competitive in a any division where MAJOR was recognized. 

[Jeff226]

1 minute ago, Ssanders224 said:

This is where you get off track. 
USPSA didn’t “put them in the same divisions”, some divisions just ALLOW major power factor and thereby an advantage in scoring over minor. 
 

I legitimately don’t know what part of USPSA scoring you think attempts to make major and minor “comparable” or competitive with each other. The scoring system awards major PF by definition. They are not, and are not intended to be competitive against each other within a division. 
 

This thread has devolved into complete clown shoes. So, I’ll end my tenure in the thread with this...
 

Defining any two otherwise identical divisions solely by major/minor scoring would 100% de facto kill the “major” division. NO ONE would choose to shoot Limited “Major”. So, you should restructure your argument into “major should only exist in Open” or something along those lines. That at least sounds logical. 

 

 

You are playing words games...saying they are allowed in the divsion is the same as saying they were put there.

 

If splitting them defacto kills the major division then that proves my point...people want limited minor.  I don't need to restructure my argument at all.  Some people are concerned that the people with .40 guns will have obsolete equipment if they change the division to minor.  That is supposedly the only reason it hasn't been done already.  I don't see any reason to obsolete anybody's gun and it makes more sense to have both until people no longer want .40 limited.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

 

What 300 +/- LEOs do with their old .40s has no bearing on the viability of Limited major.  The fact that high cap 9mms are about 90% of new handguns sold does.  

 

 

the fact that high cap 9mms are about 90% of new handguns sold (which is probably false) has no bearing on the viability of limited major, just like the bikes sold at walmart have no bearing on what is legal or sensible for bicycle competition in the olympics.

[motosapiens]

48 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

Are you serious?  If they didn't intend for them to be competitive they would have never put them in the same competitive divisions and/or came up with a scoring systems that attempts to make them comparable.

News flash! No one ever wanted to make them comparable.  The whole concept of DVC is NOT to make wimpy rounds comparable to more powerful ones, but to reward more powerful ammunition for people that are willing to train enough to be able to shoot it well. The current system does that.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

You are playing words games...saying they are allowed in the divsion is the same as saying they were put there.

 

this is wrong, and doesn't even make sense. You're allowed to use 3" barrels in limited too. That doesn't mean they were 'put there', and we need to suddenly change the rules so 3" barrels have less of a disadvantage.

[Jeff226]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

the fact that high cap 9mms are about 90% of new handguns sold (which is probably false) has no bearing on the viability of limited major, just like the bikes sold at walmart have no bearing on what is legal or sensible for bicycle competition in the olympics.

Sure it does.  If your analogy was correct we would be seeing growth in open as opposed to carry optics.  

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Balakay said:

Is it possible that Jeff=Beard?

seems more likely that Jeff  = Bill Wilson.  He's probably feeling sad that even the fudds don't take ESP seriously. 

[Jeff226]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

this is wrong, and doesn't even make sense. You're allowed to use 3" barrels in limited too. That doesn't mean they were 'put there', and we need to suddenly change the rules so 3" barrels have less of a disadvantage.

If these things weren't "put" in the rules then how did they get there?

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Jeff226 said:

Sure it does.  If your analogy was correct we would be seeing growth in open as opposed to carry optics.  

I thought we were talking about limited.... What does CO (or any of the other minor divisions) have to do with this discussion?

[Jeff226]

Just now, motosapiens said:

I thought we were talking about limited.... What does CO (or any of the other minor divisions) have to do with this discussion?

More than Olympic bicycles and the library police.

[motosapiens]

I think we need a separate division for every brand and model of gun. That's the only way for competition to be fair, and to avoid hurting the feelings of the people who S&W SD guns.

[motosapiens]

I think we need a separate category for every year of age, so people can win 59 year old category at matches, and not be sad.

[BritinUSA]

[motosapiens]

Limited would be better if we had Limited-8, Limited-10, Limited-12, Limited 14, and Limited 20. This will keep the many people who buy 12 and 14 round 40cal guns from being unfairly disadvantaged by not being able to easily win matches (except in the 61 year old category, if that other 61 year old doesn't show up).

[motosapiens]

dead horse indeed.

Edited July 13, 2021 by motosapiens

[outerlimits]

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

seems more likely that Jeff  = Bill Wilson.  He's probably feeling sad that even the fudds don't take ESP seriously. 

don't egg him on, he'll be campaigning for rimfire next, which would add another 4 divisions like the steel challenge,

[Jeff226]

34 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

seems more likely that Jeff  = Bill Wilson.  He's probably feeling sad that even the fudds don't take ESP seriously. 

 

14 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

don't egg him on, he'll be campaigning for rimfire next, which would add another 4 divisions like the steel challenge,

 

Ha, now these are good posts.  I promise if I was Bill Wilson I would be out on my land killing pigs.  

[Ssanders224]

1 hour ago, Jeff226 said:

You are playing words games...saying they are allowed in the divsion is the same as saying they were put there.

 

If splitting them defacto kills the major division then that proves my point...people want limited minor.  I don't need to restructure my argument at all.  Some people are concerned that the people with .40 guns will have obsolete equipment if they change the division to minor.  That is supposedly the only reason it hasn't been done already.  I don't see any reason to obsolete anybody's gun and it makes more sense to have both until people no longer want .40 limited.

Wrong, it’s not word games. 
I seriously can’t believe I’m saying thing again, but it’s identical to Optics being allowed in Open. You don’t HAVE to use an optic, but since they are specifically allowed in the division (like major scoring) be silly to not use one. 
 

Wrong again.

I’ll use myself as an example. I think Limited Minor as a division is nonsense. Major in Limited makes sense to me. I’m fine with shooting .40. However, if USPSA instated “limited minor” as a division, I’d move to that (as would everyone else). All Limited shooters I’ve discussed it with feel the same. Doesn’t mean they want it.  And yes, tens of thousands of .40 Limited guns would be obsolete over night. 
 

Similarly, I (along with most other serious CO shooters) think allowing WMLs is nonsense. However, I strapped one onto my G34 as soon as they were allowed. 
 

You don’t have to restructure your argument, that’s your prerogative, but “Major should only exist in Open” sounds/is more logical and will garner more support than “Limited Minor”. 
 

I should have stopped after my post on page 11. It said what needed to be said. Go re-read it. 
 

Y’all have fun. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Ssanders224

[Jeff226]

2 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

Wrong again.

I’ll use myself as an example. I think Limited Minor as a division is nonsense. Major in Limited makes sense to me. I’m fine with shooting .40. However, if USPSA instated “limited minor” as a division, I’d move to that (as would everyone else). All Limited shooters I’ve discussed it with feel the same. Doesn’t mean they want it.  And yes, tens of thousands of .40 Limited guns would be obsolete over night. 

Why would anybody switch if they don't want it?   

 

If there is still a .40/165 pf division then the gun is not obsolete.  You can load a .40 to minor PF and the gun is still not obsolete.  You can fit a 9mm barrel and the gun is still not obsolete.

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, dansedgli said:

Jeff226 has 226 posts. 

 

Most of them complaining about 40 dating way back to 2019. 

 

What's your uspsa number? Who are we dealing with. 

 

It's been longer than that. 

His first post, on 26Oct18:

Quote

 

The number of divisions might have been a valid concern 5-10 years ago but it is silly to obsess over it now that we have computers.

 

Id' like to see the following:

 

10 minor

10 major

Limited minor

Limited Major

Carry Optics

Open

 

I have no objection to a single stack in addition to those.

 

 

He's a 1-trick pony who's been baiting anyone who would argue along with the same tired illogic since his arrival. As long as people engage with him, he will keep playing you. 

 

I did not use the word Troll. I leave to each to decide on their own.

[outerlimits]

41 minutes ago, Jeff226 said:

You can fit a 9mm barrel and the gun is still not obsolete.

not a gunsmith, but there's this thing called a breech face.