PCC Accidental Discharge - Cite the rule for the DQ

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

I'm still curious as to whether "stand by" had been issued, and what the start position was. 

 

As to comparing it to an AD while moving (10.4.6), that's not apples to apples. The difference being that there is a specific rule addressing that type of AD, or rather, a rule classifying a discharge during movement AS and AD. In that situation the only judgment the RO can make is whether or not a target was being engaged.

 

The same doesn't currently hold true for the situation described in the OP. There is no parameter (such as movement) defined by the rule book for the RO to judge.

 

so far, I disagree with the bolded part. It seems to me there is a judgement call as to whether it's a legitimate false start vs the shooter having an AD during the make-ready, etc.... procedures. If the shooters starts raising the gun and then shoots (even early), it seems like a false start. If the shooter is just standing there waiting for the beep and the gun goes off, it seems like an AD. I think that is still the case even if the standby command has been given.

 

I realize there are some stages where rifle shooters start with the gun pointed directly at the first target and they pull the trigger at the beep, without raising the gun. For the purposes of this discussion, I am assuming this is not one of those stages.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I would think this would be like a pistol shooter drawing his gun not aiming and sending one, just getting lucky and hit the berm. I would assume the pistol shooter doesn't DQ either he just get restarted just like the PCC shooter. 

 

 

it could be like that, or it could be like the pistol shooter who is just standing there and his gun goes off by itself, in the holster, but happens not to hit the ground within 10' (perhaps a reclining start like I've seen at PASA).

 

If you're making a motion to begin shooting and have an otherrwise safe early shot, that's cool. If you shoot before trying to start the stage, that's not cool.

[Ssanders224]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

so far, I disagree with the bolded part. It seems to me there is a judgement call as to whether it's a legitimate false start vs the shooter having an AD during the make-ready, etc.... procedures. If the shooters starts raising the gun and then shoots (even early), it seems like a false start. If the shooter is just standing there waiting for the beep and the gun goes off, it seems like an AD. I think that is still the case even if the standby command has been given.

 

I realize there are some stages where rifle shooters start with the gun pointed directly at the first target and they pull the trigger at the beep, without raising the gun. For the purposes of this discussion, I am assuming this is not one of those stages.

 

Here's the issue... 

 

The "10.4s" of the rule book pretty clearly define what an "AD" is. It literally states "An accidental discharge is defined as follows:"

The situation in discussion simply does NOT meet any of the defined criteria. 

 

The situation DOES however satisfy the criteria for a false start.  Being that the shooter began the stage (fired a "safe" shot) presumably after "stand by" and before the buzzer. 

 

For reference's sake "False start" is defined by the rule book as follows:

"Beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the ""start signal""".  

It doesn't require movement, shooting AT a target, mounting a gun, or any other specific action. 

 

So again, because the "AD" doesn't meet the 10.4 criteria, you'd be at best "shoe-horning" an AD in under 10.5. 

 

 

*As a disclaimer, I' still assume the shooter noted in the OP most likely unintentionally cooked one off, and I think there SHOULD be a clear way to support a DQ.* 

 

 

 

[gunshrink]

Actually this is close to a question I had on my RO test this year. and the right answer was no DQ early start

 

[louu]

I kinda feel like this thread has run its course. 

 

I kinda feel like the OP trolled us, where ya been man? 

 

I definitely feel like we weren't there and there's not enough details in the OP. 

 

Was the RO a real RO that uses ALL the proper range commands or was he just one of the guys helping out, sometimes forgets the standby command and just hits the go button randomly? Not that there's anything wrong with that I'm always happy to see guys getting involved and helping even if they don't know exactly what they are doing. 

 

Yes, I understand the rules and how they are worded. 

 

I am the kind of guy that absolutely hates DQing anyone. Yeah I know the RO never DQs anyone the shooter DQs themselves. 

 

Here's the thing,

ROing is actually a huge responsibility. You have to keep the people behind you safe and you have to represent the safety of the club even if it's not your club. As said above by a few guys, it's always obvious when someones gun goes off and they didn't mean it. That, for the safety of the club and the people around us is means for disqualification. 

 

We are playing with real guns and real ammo, you own and are responsible for that bullet forever. 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by louu

[Ssanders224]

33 minutes ago, louu said:

As said above by a few guys, it's always obvious when someones gun goes off and they didn't mean it. That, for the safety of the club and the people around us is means for disqualification. 

[Cuz]

Even if it was trolling, it’s been educational to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ssanders224]

38 minutes ago, louu said:

As said above by a few guys, it's always obvious when someones gun goes off and they didn't mean it. That, for the safety of the club and the people around us is means for disqualification. 

 

 

Understand the sentiment, and don’t disagree.
 

But... per the current USPSA rules, just because someone’s guns goes off when they don’t intend for it to is NOT means for DQ.  

[ima45dv8]

7 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Even if it was trolling, it’s been educational to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I truly don't believe Andrew was trolling us with this.

It's a legitimate and [obviously] debatable question.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, Bosshoss said:

Good points.

What about the production shooter that has a brain fart while making ready and pulls the trigger before grabbing/lowering the hammer on their CZ? 

What about a classifier with multiple strings. Shooter shoots first string and during make ready for second string does a practice draw with a still loaded gun. Has a brain fart and draws and aims down range and touches one off. I guess this OK now?

I have seen both of these happen at level 4 matches and they were DQ'ed.

 

Good point, I've seen both of those too

[louu]

I was kinda joking using the word trolling, I forgot how offensive it is lol. 

 

I am hoping he comes back and answers some of the questions. 

 

I understand the rules but at what point does club rules and safety Trump uspsa rules? 

[waktasz]

At a USPSA match, never.

[motosapiens]

16 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

Here's the issue... 

 

The "10.4s" of the rule book pretty clearly define what an "AD" is. It literally states "An accidental discharge is defined as follows:"

The situation in discussion simply does NOT meet any of the defined criteria. 

 

 

I disagree. It seems to fit the definition as waktasz explained quite effectively.

[louu]

3 hours ago, waktasz said:

At a USPSA match, never.

What are you saying, that the rules are not that great? 

 

Asking because earlier you said you would DQ them. What rule would you do that under? 

[waktasz]

Asked and answered. It's on page 2. 

[p7fl]

4 hours ago, waktasz said:

At a USPSA match, never.

 

FWIW I disagree. If a person acts or is acting in an unsafe manner, they must be removed.

My son sent me this quote this morning regarding Covid and speedy trials.

"The Constitution is not a suicide pact'

Nor is the USPSA rule book.

[waktasz]

There are no local rules in USPSA. 

[Sarge]

34 minutes ago, p7fl said:

 

FWIW I disagree. If a person acts or is acting in an unsafe manner, they must be removed.

My son sent me this quote this morning regarding Covid and speedy trials.

"The Constitution is not a suicide pact'

Nor is the USPSA rule book.

3.3

Applicability of Rules

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline.

Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ

[bret]

On 3/18/2020 at 1:52 PM, broadside72 said:

 

And if I flip the safety off on my holstered 1911 I go home. That is the comparison I am trying to make.

there is a specific rule for that.

What rule is a DQ for a false or early start?

[broadside72]

there is a specific rule for that.

What rule is a DQ for a false or early start?

Hence my "PCC are getting a free pass"

[outerlimits]

2 minutes ago, bret said:

there is a specific rule for that.

What rule is a DQ for a false or early start?

how about the new rule 10.4.8-if it's a pcc at a pistol match, it's a DQ, period.

[bret]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

4 minutes ago, bret said:

there is a specific rule for that.

What rule is a DQ for a false or early start?

Hence my "PCC are getting a free pass"

nope, if a PCC shooter comes to the line and starts diddling with their dot, DQ, yet a CO or Open shooter can diddle with their dot in the holster all they want.

 

[broadside72]

nope, if a PCC shooter comes to the line and starts diddling with their dot, DQ, yet a CO or Open shooter can diddle with their dot in the holster all they want.
 

You aren't reading the entire thread. I'm done.

[bret]

Just now, broadside72 said:

2 minutes ago, bret said:

nope, if a PCC shooter comes to the line and starts diddling with their dot, DQ, yet a CO or Open shooter can diddle with their dot in the holster all they want.
 

You aren't reading the entire thread. I'm done.

it was a false start, I have had quite a few shooters start before they were supposed to, stopped them, reset if needed and restarted them.

[Schutzenmeister]

11 hours ago, bret said:

it was a false start, I have had quite a few shooters start before they were supposed to, stopped them, reset if needed and restarted them.

 

Bingo!  I had a PCC shooter at the Nationals 2-3 years ago do exactly this: Standby (brief pause) index gun/bang/BEEP.  I immediately called STOP!  The shooter thought certain he was DQ'd and my RO looked at me a little puzzled.  (I was the CRO.)  I simply said False start ... Tape the target and restart the shooter.  The shooter looked between shock and relief.  I just told him to relax, smiled and told him next time to wait for the beep.

 

He thanked me later for not DQ'ing him.  I explained that a false start was not grounds (by the rules) for a DQ.  As a side note, had he done it again I would have had him unload and moved him to the bottom of the squad ... Give him time to settle down and think.  I still would not have had grounds to DQ him.