PCC Accidental Discharge - Cite the rule for the DQ

[Soderquist]

3 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Seems the consensus from those who actually know the rules is that he gets a restart, and not a DQ.  And unless I missed it, no one has cited a rule that justifies a DQ.  If you want to make up your own rules at an unsanctioned match, that's fine.  But you're not allowed to do that at a USPSA match.

Like I said in the real world he'd be DQed, if you doubt me try it at your next match.

[outerlimits]

1 minute ago, Soderquist said:

Like I said in the real world he'd be DQed, if you doubt me try it at your next match.

this^^^

[ltdmstr]

10 minutes ago, Soderquist said:

Like I said in the real world he'd be DQed, if you doubt me try it at your next match.

 

In case you missed it, the topic of this forum is "USPSA/IPSC Rules."  If someone did this at the next match, and it's a USPSA sanctioned event, the result would be the same.  Restart, no DQ.  Doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not.  You don't get to DQ someone just because you don't like it.

[Soderquist]

6 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

In case you missed it, the topic of this forum is "USPSA/IPSC Rules."  If someone did this at the next match, and it's a USPSA sanctioned event, the result would be the same.  Restart, no DQ.  Doesn't matter whether you agree with it or not.  You don't get to DQ someone just because you don't like it.

try it

[ltdmstr]

pwnd

[StealthyBlagga]

I think most, including me, agree that the rules do not punish this type of unintended discharge. The problem is that the rules do not punish this type of unintended discharge.

 

I suspect those who think this is OK are experiencing normalcy bias - if it is all you have known, you think it's normal. I've been shooting this sport long enough to remember when an unintended discharge was prima facie evidence of incompetent or careless gun handling, and it was not tolerated. The fact that it is now OK is one of the reasons I shoot less USPSA now than I used to.

Edited March 24, 2020 by StealthyBlagga

[Soderquist]

45 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

I think most, including me, agree that the rules do not punish this type of unintended discharge. The problem is that the rules do not punish this type of unintended discharge.

 

I suspect those who think this is OK are experiencing normalcy bias - if it is all you have known, you think it's normal. I've been shooting this sport long enough to remember when an unintended discharge was prima facie evidence of incompetent or careless gun handling, and it was not tolerated. The fact that it is now OK is one of the reasons I shoot less USPSA now than I used to.

It is disappointing to find out that a negligent/unintentional/accidental  discharge would be tolerated in USPSA. It is even more bizarre that some shooters could think that such an act was not inherently negligent and dangerous regardless of the rules.

[ltdmstr]

I'm not one to tolerate safety infractions.  I've seen a lot of crazy stuff over they years, from cops waiving guns around, to a guy who intentionally put a round from an open gun between another guy's feet.  I really wish I hadn't seen any of it.  I don't even shoot at public ranges any more because of the stuff that goes on.  In fact, the number of times I've shot a gun at an open public range over the past 10 years was twice.  Once to qualify for my CCW, and the other to renew it.  So I certainly wouldn't be thrilled to see this happen either.  But on the scale of safety infractions, this is pretty darn near the bottom.  And even though it was clearly an AD, there was zero chance of anyone getting hurt.  So, if I were RO, I'd give him a stern warning and a restart.  If he did it again (or something similar), he'd be persona non grata at that range.

[Racinready300ex]

17 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

There are lots of instances where an AD doesn't involve negligence, so to use the terms interchangeably is clearly wrong.  And to say there's only NDs, no ADs, is just as wrong.  In the situation under discussion, if he didn't even break the rules, how is that negligence?  The gun was safely downrange and nothing he did was unsafe.  Seems like you have it completely backwards.  An early start/AD, isn't automatically negligent.  But breaking the 180 certainly is because it's a breach of the reasonable standard care that we expect of ALL shooters.

 

Perhaps the definition of accident would help you. "a even that happens by chance without apparent or deliberate cause"

 

 

So you're saying this guys gun just went off on it's own for no reason? Yes, that would be a accident. Now if the shooter clicked off the safety, and pulled the trigger there was a deliberate cause, he did it early for what ever reason so it wasn't intentional and by definition negligent. that was my point.

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

So he had an AD and burned one into the ground.  What was the risk to anyone there other than maybe startling the RO?  

 

17 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 But breaking the 180 certainly is because it's a breach of the reasonable standard care that we expect of ALL shooters.

 

These two are interesting points. If I break the 180, and hit 181 while still safely pointed at the berm and the finger is off the trigger there is no real risk but I'm DQ'd because that is a reasonable standard. 

 

At the same time a AD/ND is good to go if there was no damage. Of course had his muzzle been just a few degrees higher he could of sent that round out of the range, but it didn't. 

[Soderquist]

21 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

These two are interesting points. If I break the 180, and hit 181 while still safely pointed at the berm and the finger is off the trigger there is no real risk but I'm DQ'd because that is a reasonable standard. 

 

At the same time a AD/ND is good to go if there was no damage. Of course had his muzzle been just a few degrees higher he could of sent that round out of the range, but it didn't. 

That's a good point. Every single mandatory DQ situation is not in fact dangerous in itself at that moment (180 pointed at the berm, dropping a gun at slide lock during the course of fire, sweeping a gun across ones body without finger on trigger etc) I could go on. The point is that safe policies work because they are administered in layers to create redundancy. That way you have to break AT LEAST two to three safety rules at the same time to hurt somebody. Like have your finger in the trigger guard AND having your safety off when your not supposed to AND actually lighting one off.

[bret]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

These two are interesting points. If I break the 180, and hit 181 while still safely pointed at the berm and the finger is off the trigger there is no real risk but I'm DQ'd because that is a reasonable standard. 

 

At the same time a AD/ND is good to go if there was no damage. Of course had his muzzle been just a few degrees higher he could of sent that round out of the range, but it didn't. 

Who is getting DQd for 181?

 

How can the R.O. know they were at 181 and not 179 or 180?

 

If an R.O. is DQing people for 181, they are looking for reasons to DQ people. 

[Racinready300ex]

24 minutes ago, bret said:

Who is getting DQd for 181?

 

How can the R.O. know they were at 181 and not 179 or 180?

 

If an R.O. is DQing people for 181, they are looking for reasons to DQ people. 

 

In theory, obvious no one is out there pulling exact angles but that is the rule. My point is just about every 180 DQ I've seen the shooter was safely pointing the gun at the side berm with his finger off the trigger. Yet that shooter is still DQ'd even though nothing truly unsafe happened. I've even seen shooters that I don't think broke the 180 get DQ'd a couple times too, that's how strict some are on that rule. 

[pjb45]

23 hours ago, Soderquist said:

It is disappointing to find out that a negligent/unintentional/accidental  discharge would be tolerated in USPSA. It is even more bizarre that some shooters could think that such an act was not inherently negligent and dangerous regardless of the rules.

Sorry about the personal inquiry:

Are you a RO?

Are you a CRO?

How many matches do you have under your belt? 

 

I am disappointed in your conclusion.  It seems to be very contradictory to some very fine logic of some very experienced RO/CRO types.

I have been to a few National and Region Championships and I would never conclude a RO/CRO would tolerate a CLEAR violation of the RULES. 

[Soderquist]

10 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

Sorry about the personal inquiry:

Are you a RO?

Are you a CRO?

How many matches do you have under your belt? 

 

I am disappointed in your conclusion.  It seems to be very contradictory to some very fine logic of some very experienced RO/CRO types.

I have been to a few National and Region Championships and I would never conclude a RO/CRO would tolerate a CLEAR violation of the RULES. 

 

Since your sorry about the personal inquiry I'll ignore it.

 

I'm not sure if you understand my "conclusion". According to the experts on this thread it seems that per current USPSA rules if a PCC shooter made ready and then lit off a round just before the buzzer went off this would not be a DQ even though said shooter did not keep his firearm safety on as required, had his finger in the trigger guard, and pressed the trigger all before the buzzer went off. I'm not saying that it is against the rules. I'm saying it is strange that it isn't against the rules being that it is clearly negligent and in violation off at least one of the basic universal firearms safety rules. That some experienced USPSA shooters would think this is not dangerous behavior (as has been expressed) is troubling to me also. It's just my opinion.

[ltdmstr]

 

Deleting so as to not offend the mods.

Edited March 25, 2020 by ltdmstr

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Soderquist said:

I'm not sure if you understand my "conclusion". According to the experts on this thread it seems that per current USPSA rules if a PCC shooter made ready and then lit off a round just before the buzzer went off this would not be a DQ even though said shooter did not keep his firearm safety on as required, had his finger in the trigger guard, and pressed the trigger all before the buzzer went off. I'm not saying that it is against the rules. I'm saying it is strange that it isn't against the rules being that it is clearly negligent and in violation off at least one of the basic universal firearms safety rules. That some experienced USPSA shooters would think this is not dangerous behavior (as has been expressed) is troubling to me also. It's just my opinion.

 

it might or might not be dangerous behavior. If the shooter simply starts early, thinking he heard a beep (maybe from the next bay, or whatever), that's NOT dangerous, it's simply an early start. Almost everyone should be able to agree with that.

 

OTOH, if the shooter was just standing there waiting for the beep and did something negligent, unintentional and retarded (other than starting the stage) and the gun went off, that's a whole different kettle of fish in my book. I get the argument that some of the very experienced CRO/RM's have been making, but as a very experienced CRO myself, that still sounds like a dq to me. In my experience it is easy to tell the difference between those situations.

 

I have to admit tho, I like where some of the arguments are going. Perhaps for the first stage of a big match I'll just 'start early' and get a handful of live fire shots a the first position before getting my reshoot. calm the nerves a little.

Edited March 25, 2020 by motosapiens

[Soderquist]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

it might or might not be dangerous behavior. If the shooter simply starts early, thinking he heard a beep (maybe from the next bay, or whatever), that's NOT dangerous, it's simply an early start. Almost everyone should be able to agree with that.

 

OTOH, if the shooter was just standing there waiting for the beep and did something negligent, unintentional and retarded (other than starting the stage) and the gun went off, that's a whole different kettle of fish in my book. I get the argument that some of the very experienced CRO/RM's have been making, but as a very experienced CRO myself, that still sounds like a dq to me. In my experience it is easy to tell the difference between those situations.

I get what you are saying, if it was like bang beep. It would be confusing. I have wondered why PCCs don't start muzzle down in a barrel instead of in hand to eliminate this possibility.

[ima45dv8]

I agree that the second situation moto described would probably warrant a DQ, but until the rulebook is adjusted to allow for that there's just not a lot I could do at that moment to further that result. As has been said many times, it's not a Suggestion Book.

 

We could continue to go back and forth on this ad nauseum, but a more productive course would contacting your Area Director and encouraging it to be discussed at the next board meeting.

[Ming the Merciless]

3 hours ago, Soderquist said:

I get what you are saying, if it was like bang beep. It would be confusing. I have wondered why PCCs don't start muzzle down in a barrel instead of in hand to eliminate this possibility.

 

Seriously?  Thousands of 3 gun matches have been started with Rifles (OMG!) and Shotguns pointed down range, at the low ready, port arms, or stock on belt without having to start with the muzzle down in a barrel for safety.  

 

Please answer the following questions:
How many matches have you shot?

Are you an RO? 

Are you a CRO?

Are you just trolling?

[Maksim]

Really interesting discussion.

 

I think we can all agree it was stupid and perhaps there SHOULD be a rule for it, however as the rules are written today, there is no explicit rule that is broken, and if it went to arb, would be overturned.

[usmc1974]

WOW!!! There sure are a lot of rules these days. I think the IPSC/USPSA rulebook must be thicker then Webster's Dictionary. Reading 6 pages of this post! made my head hurt!!! lol wow. I do hope you all get it sorted out.

[Soderquist]

7 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

I agree that the second situation moto described would probably warrant a DQ, but until the rulebook is adjusted to allow for that there's just not a lot I could do at that moment to further that result. As has been said many times, it's not a Suggestion Book.

 

We could continue to go back and forth on this ad nauseum, but a more productive course would contacting your Area Director and encouraging it to be discussed at the next board meeting.

I think this is the most intelligent comment on this subject.

[Racinready300ex]

5 hours ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

Seriously?  Thousands of 3 gun matches have been started with Rifles (OMG!) and Shotguns pointed down range, at the low ready, port arms, or stock on belt without having to start with the muzzle down in a barrel for safety.  

 

Please answer the following questions:
How many matches have you shot?

Are you an RO? 

Are you a CRO?

Are you just trolling?

 

 

Let me ask you a question since you mentioned 3 gun. In those matches if you're starting with a rifle stock on belt or what ever and light one off for no reason randomly what happens? Same as USPSA? Just continue as if nothing happened?

[gerritm]

In many 3-gun matches I have never seen this happen, but the questions would be, and only the RO can judge, which is the same as this original post, did the shooter anticipate the beep, false start, reshoot, did the shooter hear another beep, false start, reshoot,  or did the shooter randomly fire one into the berm off their hip or shoulder, DQ unsafe gun handling AD, ND, or whatever you want to call it. In 3-gun not sure of the particular rule, but most are outlaw matches with a combination of rules and unsafe, ND, AD, whatever is all enforced in our local matches. No questions. Safety is the most important part of our games, no questions on safety. Looking at UML 3-gun rules, this would be an ND and would be up to the RO to judge the situation.

 

Personally as I said before I would apologize to all and DQ myself if I randomly, took the safety off, put my finger on the trigger, and fired one into the berm before the beep and after make ready and not starting the COF.

 

gerritm