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Jollymon32

PCC Accidental Discharge - Cite the rule for the DQ

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Posted (edited)

PCC shooter at a USPSA match, comes to the line, they are issued the MAKE READY command.  Shooter fiddles with the PCC, sets the safety, and assumes the start position.

 

RO issues the ARE YOU READY command, and for some strange reason, before the BEEP,  shooter fires off a round that impacts the rear berm (no 180 violation, more than 10' away).

 

DQ, seems obvious.  However, cite a rule for the DQ.

 

 

Edited by Jollymon32
Clarify USPSA not IPSC match

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I cannot find any rule which would support a DQ.  (10.4.3 does not apply.  The description indicates that by definition loading was complete.)

 

I have a more fundamental question: If the safety was on, how did the gun go bang?  I assume his finger was on the trigger ... Why?  If the safety was actually not on or the shooter's finger was inside the trigger guard the Are You Ready should not have been given.

 

I have more questions along these lines, but I'm pretty sure the correct answer here is to reset everything and restart the shooter for a premature start.

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9 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I cannot find any rule which would support a DQ.  (10.4.3 does not apply.  The description indicates that by definition loading was complete.)

 

I have a more fundamental question: If the safety was on, how did the gun go bang?  I assume his finger was on the trigger ... Why?  If the safety was actually not on or the shooter's finger was inside the trigger guard the Are You Ready should not have been given.

 

I have more questions along these lines, but I'm pretty sure the correct answer here is to reset everything and restart the shooter for a premature start.

I agree, but the firearm should be inpected prior to letting the shooter restart to insure the safety operates properly. 

 

5.1.6 Firearms must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand 
examination of a competitor’s firearm or related equipment, at any time, to 
check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unserviceable or 
unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the match until the item 
is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

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8.2.3.1
A course of fire must never require or allow a PCC competitor to
touch or hold ammunition, loading devices or magazines after the
“Standby” command and before the start signal. Fingers must be
outside the trigger guard and the safety applied if the carbine is
loaded. Start positions may not require the competitor to start
facing uprange while holding the carbine.
 
8.5.1
Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all
movement (seeAppendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly
outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.
The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction.
 
10.1.1
Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply
with procedures specified in a written stage briefing.
The Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number of penalties, and the
reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.
 
Best I can tell, as the information provided and in reading the rules regarding an AD, it would be a restart and a procedural for safety/finger in the trigger guard.

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Yeah, it feels like a safety infraction, but there seems to be no rules to justify a DQ, just a false start.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, dogtired said:

and a procedural for safety/finger in the trigger guard.

That's quite a stretch, but no, it's not a procedural.

Reset if needed, and restart.

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3 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

That's quite a stretch, but no, it's not a procedural.

Reset if needed, and restart.

Yes ... And watch him vewy vewy carefully Mr Fudd!  🤨

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Not really arguing just enjoy the exercise.   If the gun goes bang before the start signal, then the safety was off or the gun is unsafe.

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10 minutes ago, Soderquist said:

You've got to be kidding me. That's not a DQ?

Since you seem convinced it is, find a rule to support the call.

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So there are three possibilities: 1) gun is defective 2) safety was not set 3) safety was set and shooter flipped it off and pulled the shot.

 

i cannot find a rule for a DQ for any of these.  Unless, we consider the carbine ‘holstered’ and thus slipping off the safety triggers 10.5.11

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After make ready, but before the beep...

 

DQ under rule 10.4.3

"This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in rule 8.3.1"

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15 minutes ago, SJan said:

After make ready, but before the beep...

 

DQ under rule 10.4.3

"This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in rule 8.3.1"

 

Nope, cause according to the OP "Are you ready" had been given.

 

I literally had a guy take off one day after the "are you ready,"  but before the beep, and start on the course of fire.  He thought he heard the beep and started.  I stopped him and we tried again.  I reckon this is what happened here, the shooter thought he heard the beep or was trying to get a jump on it, both of which don't mean DQ

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17 minutes ago, SJan said:

After make ready, but before the beep...

 

DQ under rule 10.4.3

"This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in rule 8.3.1"

 

Sorry ... 8.3.1 was complete.  He finished loading (see the glossary), applied the safety and assumed the start position.  The RO gave Are You Ready ... 10.4.3 and 8.3.1 no longer apply.

 

The ONLY rule I can find that is on point is 8.3.4.1.  Stop the shooter, reset the stage and restart him.

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15 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

10.4.8 ???

In this Section, if it can be established that the cause of the discharge is due to a broken or defective part of the firearm, the competitor has not committed any safety infraction in this Section, and a disqualification will not be invoked, but the competitor's scores for that stage will be zero.

 

-> If RO didn't catch competitor with finger on the trigger, COF was not started, I would go to this direction. 

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9 hours ago, Soderquist said:

You've got to be kidding me. That's not a DQ?

 

Not all ADs are DQs.

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16 minutes ago, Kema said:

In this Section, if it can be established that the cause of the discharge is due to a broken or defective part of the firearm, the competitor has not committed any safety infraction in this Section, and a disqualification will not be invoked, but the competitor's scores for that stage will be zero.

 

-> If RO didn't catch competitor with finger on the trigger, COF was not started, I would go to this direction. 

Dude ... There is no 10.4.8 in the current rules.  Further, you have to go back over 10 years to find the "broken gun alibi" in the rules.  USPSA did say with that a LONG time ago.  Are you by chance quoting IPSC rules?  (It still exists there ...)

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4 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Dude ... There is no 10.4.8 in the current rules.  Further, you have to go back over 10 years to find the "broken gun alibi" in the rules.  USPSA did say with that a LONG time ago.  Are you by chance quoting IPSC rules?  (It still exists there ...)

 

Yep, topic doesn't really say if it's IPSC or USPSA

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