PCC Accidental Discharge - Cite the rule for the DQ

[Jollymon32]

Sorry guys, definitely not a troll - just busy dealing with the Kung Flu debacle. I brought this question up because I do not believe in DQ’ing anyone if there is not a rule I can cite.  There is no doubt that the shooter flipped the safety and pulled the trigger after the Are You Ready  command but before the beep.  

 

Was this an AD? Was he aming at a target? Did he hit a target (no he did not)?   Are all questions that obviously I asked myself, but in retrospect do not apply,  because the very basis of the definition of AD is not met here. 

 

 Someone quoted 8.2.3.1,  but this is not a basis for a DQ, the ramifications of 8.2.3.1 is that the shooter is not started until such time that he conforms to  that rule.

 

Another poster mentions 10.5 unsafe gun handling. However that section is very detailed as to what is unsafe gun handling and none of the definitions fit this situation.

 

Unless there are more specific rulings in the future, although this feels like a DQ, I have to agree with the posters that said that this is simply a false start. Discussions with a good friend of mine who is an RM also points in this direction, he opined:

”Everything about this was safe except he fired...  it was an AD, but didn’t break any rules.. what would you do to a pistol shooter, if they heard Are You Ready then 2 seconds later drew and fired? ”

[ChuckS]

6 hours ago, Jollymon32 said:

Sorry guys, definitely not a troll - just busy dealing with the Kung Flu debacle. I brought this question up because I do not believe in DQ’ing anyone if there is not a rule I can cite.  There is no doubt that the shooter flipped the safety and pulled the trigger after the Are You Ready  command but before the beep. 

--- snip ---

 

Had the "Standby"  "Are you ready?" command happen before the shot?

 

edited...

Edited March 20, 2020 by ChuckS

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Bingo!  I had a PCC shooter at the Nationals 2-3 years ago do exactly this: Standby (brief pause) index gun/bang/BEEP.  I immediately called STOP!  The shooter thought certain he was DQ'd and my RO looked at me a little puzzled.  (I was the CRO.)  I simply said False start ... Tape the target and restart the shooter.  The shooter looked between shock and relief.  I just told him to relax, smiled and told him next time to wait for the beep.

 

He thanked me later for not DQ'ing him.  I explained that a false start was not grounds (by the rules) for a DQ.  As a side note, had he done it again I would have had him unload and moved him to the bottom of the squad ... Give him time to settle down and think.  I still would not have had grounds to DQ him.

 

That sounds different then this situation. Your shooter hit a target, that sounds like a false start. This guy sent a random shot into the berm not at a target is how I read the OP. I'm picturing it as no question he was not shooting at a target but did at least keep it in the range. Take USPSA rules out of it for a second and I think everyone would agree that this is unsafe gun handling. USPSA has a rule for unsafe gun handling but apparently that only applies if you don't fire the gun. Any shots fired are considered safe gun handling. 

[PatJones]

 
That sounds different then this situation. Your shooter hit a target, that sounds like a false start. This guy sent a random shot into the berm not at a target is how I read the OP. I'm picturing it as no question he was not shooting at a target but did at least keep it in the range. Take USPSA rules out of it for a second and I think everyone would agree that this is unsafe gun handling. USPSA has a rule for unsafe gun handling but apparently that only applies if you don't fire the gun. Any shots fired are considered safe gun handling. 

An negligent discharge into a berm is not a DQ unless you're reloading or moving. Been that way since I've been an RO.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[waktasz]

What if you make read, load your gun. Stand there for a bit with your gun out, then launch one. Still cool? 

[Racinready300ex]

30 minutes ago, waktasz said:

What if you make read, load your gun. Stand there for a bit with your gun out, then launch one. Still cool? 

 

Why wouldn't it be? 

 

hhmmm....Could I take a couple practice shots and clump of dirt on the berm? Same, same

[Racinready300ex]

35 minutes ago, PatJones said:

An negligent discharge into a berm is not a DQ unless you're reloading or moving. Been that way since I've been an RO.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

 

That's why at the end of my post I said any shots fired are considered safe. It's only unsafe gun handling if you don't fire a round per earlier posts.

[nasty618]

This happened to me at a major match last year: two short stages, staying loaded between them. At Make Ready on the second stage, I draw, take a sight picture on the popper and squeeze the trigger... round hit the steel dead center.  A complete brain fart on my part, forgetting that we remained hot between stages.  RM struggled to find the right rule to log in the tablet... Should I have been restarted?

[waktasz]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Why wouldn't it be? 

 

hhmmm....Could I take a couple practice shots and clump of dirt on the berm? Same, same

 

I'm not talking about practice shots, talking about standing there with your gun in hand, at waist level and BANG.  Not over the berm and not within 10 feet. So we're cool with that? 

 

[ltdmstr]

5 hours ago, PatJones said:

An negligent discharge into a berm is not a DQ unless you're reloading or moving. Been that way since I've been an RO.

 

Where exactly is the negligence here?  Seems like he followed all safety rules and the round went into the ground/berm as it should.  An early shot doesn't equal negligence.

[outerlimits]

2 hours ago, nasty618 said:

This happened to me at a major match last year: two short stages, staying loaded between them. At Make Ready on the second stage, I draw, take a sight picture on the popper and squeeze the trigger... round hit the steel dead center.  A complete brain fart on my part, forgetting that we remained hot between stages.  RM struggled to find the right rule to log in the tablet... Should I have been restarted?

GTFO.

[nasty618]

15 hours ago, outerlimits said:

GTFO

 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by nasty618

[Jollymon32]

5 hours ago, nasty618 said:

This happened to me at a major match last year: two short stages, staying loaded between them. At Make Ready on the second stage, I draw, take a sight picture on the popper and squeeze the trigger... round hit the steel dead center.  A complete brain fart on my part, forgetting that we remained hot between stages.  RM struggled to find the right rule to log in the tablet... Should I have been restarted?

That’s a DQ, 10.4.3. 

The issue being discussed is a round being discharged after the Are You Ready and before the Beep.

[bret]

17 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

hhmmm....Could I take a couple practice shots and clump of dirt on the berm? Same, same

that is a good way to conserve your ammo.

[Racinready300ex]

On 3/20/2020 at 6:04 PM, waktasz said:

 

I'm not talking about practice shots, talking about standing there with your gun in hand, at waist level and BANG.  Not over the berm and not within 10 feet. So we're cool with that? 

 

 

I got you. And I don't think we're cool with it, but apparently we're cool with it. If that makes sense.

[StealthyBlagga]

Without reading all 5 pages of back and forth, this basically reflects the "make the match more competitor friendly/benefit goes to the shooter/bums on seats" mentality at USPSA and IPSC over the last decade. Everyone knows this was a negligent discharge, but the rules tie the officials' hands. Until someone ends up in a body bag because of it, shooters will continue to push the envelope and USPSA will continue to say No Harm, No Foul. 

[ltdmstr]

54 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Without reading all 5 pages of back and forth, this basically reflects the "make the match more competitor friendly/benefit goes to the shooter/bums on seats" mentality at USPSA and IPSC over the last decade. Everyone knows this was a negligent discharge, but the rules tie the officials' hands. Until someone ends up in a body bag because of it, shooters will continue to push the envelope and USPSA will continue to say No Harm, No Foul. 

 

Not sure how someone ends up in a body bag if the gun is pointed safely downrange, and no one is down there.    Also don't see how negligence comes into play here.  It was an early start/AD that went into the ground or berm.  It was neither unsafe, nor negligent.

Edited March 23, 2020 by ltdmstr

[Racinready300ex]

"Negligent: Failing to take proper care to do something" 

 

Even a false start would be negligent. People just don't like the word. Kind of like no one likes being called ignorant, because no one knows what it means. I've seen it argued that there is no such thing as a AD, only ND's. 

 

Breaking the 180 isn't always unsafe. But you get DQ'd anyway. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Racinready300ex

[ltdmstr]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

"Negligent: Failing to take proper care to do something" 

 

Even a false start would be negligent. People just don't like the word. Kind of like no one likes being called ignorant, because no one knows what it means. I've seen it argued that there is no such thing as a AD, only ND's. 

 

Breaking the 180 isn't always unsafe. But you get DQ'd anyway. 

 

There are lots of instances where an AD doesn't involve negligence, so to use the terms interchangeably is clearly wrong.  And to say there's only NDs, no ADs, is just as wrong.  In the situation under discussion, if he didn't even break the rules, how is that negligence?  The gun was safely downrange and nothing he did was unsafe.  Seems like you have it completely backwards.  An early start/AD, isn't automatically negligent.  But breaking the 180 certainly is because it's a breach of the reasonable standard care that we expect of ALL shooters.

[broadside72]

He is only getting away with no DQ because "are you ready?" happened and he was no longer under 8.3.1

[StealthyBlagga]

3 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Not sure how someone ends up in a body bag if the gun is pointed safely downrange, and no one is down there.    Also don't see how negligence comes into play here.  It was an early start/AD that went into the ground or berm.  It was neither unsafe, nor negligent.

Because it is clear the our sport is willing to tolerate incompetent gun handling like this. When incompetents are running around with loaded weapons, the chance of someone getting hurt goes up.

[Soderquist]

3 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

...   Also don't see how negligence comes into play here.  It was an early start/AD that went into the ground or berm.  It was neither unsafe, nor negligent.

It's hard to believe that it's not against the rules but it IS in violation of one of the the three rules of gun safety. "Keep your finger off the trigger" if that's not negligent and unsafe then I must be misunderstanding the three rules of gun safety. 

[ltdmstr]

 

21 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

Because it is clear the our sport is willing to tolerate incompetent gun handling like this. When incompetents are running around with loaded weapons, the chance of someone getting hurt goes up.

 

So he had an AD and burned one into the ground.  What was the risk to anyone there other than maybe startling the RO?  There are always going to be newbies, inexperience shooters, and the random idiot.  But I haven't seen a big uptick in unsafe gun handling recently at USPSA matches.  Certainly no more than in years past.  And I've been doing this for 30+ years.  And really, compared to LEOs, trainers, and the general public, USPSA has an incredible safety record. 

 

7 minutes ago, Soderquist said:

It's hard to believe that it's not against the rules but it IS in violation of one of the the three rules of gun safety. "Keep your finger off the trigger" if that's not negligent and unsafe then I must be misunderstanding the three rules of gun safety. 

 

Well, that's only part of the rule.  It's actually, "keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot."  And under the facts posted, he was ready to shoot, and to do so in a safe manner.  He did jump ahead of the timer and put one in the ground/berm.  But it wasn't unsafe and it definitely wasn't negligence.

 

 

[Soderquist]

40 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

 

 

 

 

Well, that's only part of the rule.  It's actually, "keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot."  And under the facts posted, he was ready to shoot, and to do so in a safe manner.  He did jump ahead of the timer and put one in the ground/berm.  But it wasn't unsafe and it definitely wasn't negligence.

 

 

Look I'm ready to shoot as I draw to first shot in under a second but MY FINGER IS OUT OF THE TRIGGER GUARD until the gun is coming into a level position. The PCC shooter put his finger in the trigger guard BEFORE THE TIMER WENT OFF. Is that not against USPSA rules? By the way if anybody lights one off before the timer he'd be DQed without consulting the rule book. If you doubt me try it at your next match and tell me how it turns out.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Soderquist

[ltdmstr]

7 minutes ago, Soderquist said:

Look I'm ready to shoot as I draw to first shot in under a second but MY FINGER IS OUT OF THE TRIGGER GUARD until the gun is coming into a level position. The PCC shooter put his finger in the trigger guard BEFORE THE TIMER WENT OFF. Is that not against USPSA rules. By the way if anybody lights one off before the timer he'd be DQed without consulting the rule book.

 

Seems the consensus from those who actually know the rules is that he gets a restart, and not a DQ.  And unless I missed it, no one has cited a rule that justifies a DQ.  If you want to make up your own rules at an unsanctioned match, that's fine.  But you're not allowed to do that at a USPSA match.