Soderquist Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 Well I guess we'll have to realize that this must be yet another exception to all the standard rules and procedures that was necessary to introduce rifles into pistol matches. Yes, I know what a carbine is. (a long gun firearm but with a shorter barrel than a standard rifle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jollymon32 Posted March 16, 2020 Author Share Posted March 16, 2020 Added to the OP that it was a USPSA match..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Soderquist said: Well I guess we'll have to realize that this must be yet another exception to all the standard rules and procedures that was necessary to introduce rifles into pistol matches. Yes, I know what a carbine is. (a long gun firearm but with a shorter barrel than a standard rifle) Not really. The 'exception' as you call it applies to pistols as well. If the shooter in the OP had been shooting a handgun, yanked it out after loading was complete but before the Start Signal, and started shooting, it's just handled as an early start (provided the conditions of an actual AD are not present). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 11 hours ago, Jollymon32 said: Yeah, it feels like a safety infraction, but there seems to be no rules to justify a DQ, just a false start. if the shooter prematurely aims his gun and shoots, that's a false start. IMHO, if a shooter cooks off a round while he's just standing there waiting for the beep, that is an AD. It's generally pretty easy to tell whether someone is aiming and expecting to shoot vs surprised at the gun going off accidentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 Kema ... The OP is listed as being from Florida. Hence the bulk of the responses are based on USPSA. However, I would likely still go 8.3.4.1 (double check the IPSC # ... I think it's the same) and order a reshoot internationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 A shooter's (suspected) intent does not play much of a role in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 If I was being a range lawyer, I would claim creeping yes, i know that would be bogus but then again. Either shooter error or gun malfunction. If the RO was not actually looking at the gun at the time, it would be any number of calls. I have no idea what would be correct one. I would not DQ unless I was absolutely assured of the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 This is probably off topic, but I had a shooter on a stage with loaded gun on a barrel start. After beep shooter picks up gun and sends one through the rim of the barrel. I stop him and DQ, unsafe gun handling. Peanut gallery says round was not within the 3 meter rule so no DQ. I call RM and he confirms no DQ. I know it was an ad as you could tell by the look on shooters face when it went off. Sometimes You get away with one, and sometimes you don’t. You can’t make a rule that covers every thing that might happen, and sometimes each interpretation of said rule is different just based on the wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 I understand there is no direct rule for this to DQ, but how can it not be unsafe gun handling AD? I have shot PCC in USPSA since day 1 and if I fired off a round after make ready on safe and before the beep, I would A--DQ myself, and B--apologize to my squad for careless handling of a weapon. Whether there is a direct rule or not. Just me I guess. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 37 minutes ago, rooster said: This is probably off topic, but I had a shooter on a stage with loaded gun on a barrel start. After beep shooter picks up gun and sends one through the rim of the barrel. I stop him and DQ, unsafe gun handling. Peanut gallery says round was not within the 3 meter rule so no DQ. I call RM and he confirms no DQ. I know it was an ad as you could tell by the look on shooters face when it went off. Sometimes You get away with one, and sometimes you don’t. You can’t make a rule that covers every thing that might happen, and sometimes each interpretation of said rule is different just based on the wording. There is a rule for that 10.4.7 A shot which occurs while retrieving a staged firearm, when the competitor is not engaging targets, and the shot does not strike a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Just now, gerritm said: I understand there is no direct rule for this to DQ, but how can it not be unsafe gun handling AD? I have shot PCC in USPSA since day 1 and if I fired off a round after make ready on safe and before the beep, I would A--DQ myself, and B--apologize to my squad for careless handling of a weapon. Whether there is a direct rule or not. Just me I guess. gerritm 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. 8.3.1 is "Make Ready" which signifies the start of the COF. Even though standby was issued it's still after Make Ready, during the COF, so 10.4.3 still works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rooster Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Waktasz, I’ll remember that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bench Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 25 minutes ago, waktasz said: 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. 8.3.1 is "Make Ready" which signifies the start of the COF. Even though standby was issued it's still after Make Ready, during the COF, so 10.4.3 still works for me. ^^. Another one here for 10.4.3. The rule says "any shot"...not 'any shot while loading, reloading or unloading'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 38 minutes ago, waktasz said: 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7. 8.3.1 is "Make Ready" which signifies the start of the COF. Even though standby was issued it's still after Make Ready, during the COF, so 10.4.3 still works for me. Was "stand by" issued? I know the OP states that "are you ready?" was, not sure about "stand by". And if it was.... How is it different than a competitor drawing and firing a shot after "stand by", but before the beep. That's a pretty routine scenario, and results in a reset and restart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: If the RO calls it, and the RM and MD support it, then it stands. If shooter wants to go to arbitration, it's their money and the staff stands by the committee decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Reading the definitions of Loading and Reloading may be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Ssanders224 said: Was "stand by" issued? I know the OP states that "are you ready?" was, not sure about "stand by". And if it was.... How is it different than a competitor drawing and firing a shot after "stand by", but before the beep. That's a pretty routine scenario, and results in a reset and restart. Drawing and firing a shot seems to be a lot different than standing there and having an oops for no reason. If someone draws, they thought they heard a beep for some reason and started the COF prematurely. If you are standing there in the ready position with a PCC and hip shoot a shot by accident that seems a lot different. I'm sure the "correct" answer is "there's no rule to DQ him for that" but I stand by DQing him and letting the RM or arb committee sort it out. F that guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 And is this really any different than a "staged firearm"? There are specific DQ rules about NDs for holstered/staged firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 22 minutes ago, waktasz said: Drawing and firing a shot seems to be a lot different than standing there and having an oops for no reason. If someone draws, they thought they heard a beep for some reason and started the COF prematurely. If you are standing there in the ready position with a PCC and hip shoot a shot by accident that seems a lot different. I'm sure the "correct" answer is "there's no rule to DQ him for that" but I stand by DQing him and letting the RM or arb committee sort it out. F that guy. I agree. If the guy raises the rifle to start the cof and fires a shot, that's very different than the gun just going off in his hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 1 hour ago, motosapiens said: I agree. If the guy raises the rifle to start the cof and fires a shot, that's very different than the gun just going off in his hand. You can't really interject your opinion on the position of the rifle if the round went downrange and impacted the berm. It's perfectly legal to fire a shot before the rifle gets to your shoulder/face, or before you move the rifle at all for that matter. And actually, that makes me curious as to what the start position was. OP? (To be clear, I'm really just playing devils advocate here for the sake of discussion. More than likely the guy accidentally cooked one off unintentionally, or his rifle malfunctioned. Both of which should probably warrant a DQ.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Regardless of personal opinions, a DQ cannot be applied unless a rule clearly specifies it. 10.4.3 does not apply since the loading was long done. For the scenario described by the OP, the only possible ruling is 8.3.4.1 - anything else is just trying to shoe horn a DQ into some ill-fitting rule. Too many ROs immediately go to the penalty route without even considering if another rule permits it. Did the shooter intend to shoot? I don't know. Was it truly a false start? I don't know. Was it a DQ? Not under our USPSA rules. The shooter having to clean his undies is sometimes the only valid penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, George Jones said: Regardless of personal opinions, a DQ cannot be applied unless a rule clearly specifies it. 10.4.3 does not apply since the loading was long done. For the scenario described by the OP, the only possible ruling is 8.3.4.1 - anything else is just trying to shoe horn a DQ into some ill-fitting rule. Too many ROs immediately go to the penalty route without even considering if another rule permits it. Did the shooter intend to shoot? I don't know. Was it truly a false start? I don't know. Was it a DQ? Not under our USPSA rules. The shooter having to clean his undies is sometimes the only valid penalty. I will say it again and no one has offered an exception to this 10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: therefore a specific rule is not required for DQ under 10.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Shoe horn. UGH rules (10.5) deal with scenarios when the gun does not go BANG! (Shooting at close steel is the only exception) ADs fall under 10.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 An ND is not unsafe handling? Got me there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 3 hours ago, broadside72 said: An ND is not unsafe handling? Got me there I live in North Dakota ... I hope that's not the ND to which you refer. In the meantime, could you do me a favor and tell me where in the USPSA Rules the term ND is used and/or defined. If you cannot, then under OUR rules there is no such term and no provision to DQ some for whatever it is. You cannot DQ someone for violations you create that do not exist in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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