PCC Accidental Discharge - Cite the rule for the DQ

[ima45dv8]

3 hours ago, gerritm said:

Personally as I said before I would apologize to all and DQ myself if I randomly, took the safety off, put my finger on the trigger, and fired one into the berm before the beep and after make ready and not starting the COF.

 

gerritm

With humble appreciation to Soderquist, I have to disagree.

^^^THIS is the most intelligent, and more importantly, most honorable thing I've read in this thread.

[Ming the Merciless]

On 3/25/2020 at 5:04 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Let me ask you a question since you mentioned 3 gun. In those matches if you're starting with a rifle stock on belt or what ever and light one off for no reason randomly what happens? Same as USPSA? Just continue as if nothing happened?

 

Until RO's become mind readers who can read intent without possibility of error and can tell without doubt whether the shooter anticipated the beep, heard another a beep from an adjacent bay, or just randomly cranked one off, yes, in USPSA Multigun false start, in one of the dozen outlaw 3 Gun rule sets, ??? your guess is as good as mine.

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

Until RO's become mind readers who can read intent without possibility of error and can tell without doubt whether the shooter anticipated the beep, heard another a beep from an adjacent bay, or just randomly cranked one off, yes, in USPSA Multigun false start, in one of the dozen outlaw 3 Gun rule sets, ??? your guess is as good as mine.

 

It's generally pretty easy based on the situation and even body language, if it's not I could see giving the benefit to the shooter. Right now the way it works the Shooter the RO and the peanut gallery will all know the shooter f'ed up and AD'd. Then I guess we'll all shrug and restart the shooter. And if they tell to me it wasn't AD and they meant to crank that round into the dirt I'm just going to roll my eye's and say whatever. No rule book is going to change that. 

[Chopaka]

1st, I am not a RO. I am a 62yr old newb to USPSA, just beginning my 2nd yr of local club shoots.

2nd, I am President of my gun club.

With the most common start position for PCC being butstock at belt, which means the muzzle is elevated, potentially above the berm.

The thought of a shooter launching a round over a berm and having a round leave the range scares the crap out of me. As president of my gun club, I would demand the RM DQ the shooter for unsafe gun handling practices - rule or no rule.

Don Jones
President
Marysville Rifle Club, WA.


Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk

[ima45dv8]

And if he launched a round over a berm, at any time, that's exactly what would happen. . .DQ.

The rules cover that. Check it out.

[Schutzenmeister]

A long, long time ago in a place not so very far away, there were ROs who tended to exercise their "good judgement" with or without the ability to support their call with the rules.  They would pronounce "That SHOULD be a DQ!" and summarily DQ the shooter … despite there being no clear rule stating it was a DQable offense.  (Similar situations existed with penalties.)  They would "shoe horn"* the call into some other rule that had - at best - a vague tangential relationship to the "offense" at hand.  We had a term for them.  They were referred to as a "Range NAZI."  It was NOT a pretty or endearing term.

 

Over the past 2 decades or so, the DNROIs (Amidon, now McManus) and the RMI Corps have worked VERY hard to change that situation through closing loopholes in the rules and better training of ROs through the NROI.  I, for one, am very pleased to see the results of those efforts have largely succeeded.  There are, unfortunately, some folks who still want to hold the title ...

 

Folks … USPSA is a NATIONAL sport whose existence depends on one set of rules, consistently applied, at every match in every state of the country.  Local rules and interpretations are simply NOT acceptable.

 

If you don't like the current rules, or you think they can be improved, get in touch with your Section Coordinator and/or Area Director.  Get the rule changed or clarified.  DO NOT go off on your own making up what YOU think they should be.  A competitor from anywhere in the country MUST be able to go to a match in any other part of the country and EXPECT the rules are the same everywhere.  To do otherwise is a disservice to the shooter.

 

\Rant Mode[Off]

 

* Credit to RMI George Jones … I hadn't heard this phraseology until you used it.  Thanks - I like it!

[pjb45]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

A long, long time ago in a place not so very far away, there were ROs who tended to exercise their "good judgement" with or without the ability to support their call with the rules.  They would pronounce "That SHOULD be a DQ!" and summarily DQ the shooter … despite there being no clear rule stating it was a DQable offense.  (Similar situations existed with penalties.)  They would "shoe horn"* the call into some other rule that had - at best - a vague tangential relationship to the "offense" at hand.  We had a term for them.  They were referred to as a "Range NAZI."  It was NOT a pretty or endearing term.

 

Over the past 2 decades or so, the DNROIs (Amidon, now McManus) and the RMI Corps have worked VERY hard to change that situation through closing loopholes in the rules and better training of ROs through the NROI.  I, for one, am very pleased to see the results of those efforts have largely succeeded.  There are, unfortunately, some folks who still want to hold the title ...

 

Folks … USPSA is a NATIONAL sport whose existence depends on one set of rules, consistently applied, at every match in every state of the country.  Local rules and interpretations are simply NOT acceptable.

 

If you don't like the current rules, or you think they can be improved, get in touch with your Section Coordinator and/or Area Director.  Get the rule changed or clarified.  DO NOT go off on your own making up what YOU think they should be.  A competitor from anywhere in the country MUST be able to go to a match in any other part of the country and EXPECT the rules are the same everywhere.  To do otherwise is a disservice to the shooter.

 

\Rant Mode[Off]

 

* Credit to RMI George Jones … I hadn't heard this phraseology until you used it.  Thanks - I like it!

 

Absolutely

[Out of Ammo]

Exactly, George Jones!

[Rookie]

21 hours ago, Chopaka said:

1st, I am not a RO. I am a 62yr old newb to USPSA, just beginning my 2nd yr of local club shoots.

2nd, I am President of my gun club.

With the most common start position for PCC being butstock at belt, which means the muzzle is elevated, potentially above the berm.

The thought of a shooter launching a round over a berm and having a round leave the range scares the crap out of me. As president of my gun club, I would demand the RM DQ the shooter for unsafe gun handling practices - rule or no rule.

Don Jones
President
Marysville Rifle Club, WA.


Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk
 

Or... you could simply require that the safety be applied during the entire course of fire.

[Racinready300ex]

21 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

And if he launched a round over a berm, at any time, that's exactly what would happen. . .DQ.

The rules cover that. Check it out.

 

At that point it's kind of late. I could see that being pointed out to a BOD at a range resulting in less then desirable actions. 

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

22 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

And if he launched a round over a berm, at any time, that's exactly what would happen. . .DQ.

The rules cover that. Check it out.

 

At that point it's kind of late. I could see that being pointed out to a BOD at a range resulting in less then desirable actions. 

Maybe, but isn't that the same risk at any match of any discipline? If someone launches one during MR or during their run at the CoF it's always too late to call it back. The only way I know to prevent that is not have loaded guns at gun ranges.  

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, ima45dv8 said:

Maybe, but isn't that the same risk at any match of any discipline? If someone launches one during MR or during their run at the CoF it's always too late to call it back. The only way I know to prevent that is not have loaded guns at gun ranges.  

 

The difference could be having safety rules in place to attempt to prevent it. Kind of like we have rules against breaking the 180 vs waiting until you point the gun at someone in the peanut gallery. But in this case the only rule is keep it in the range when you AD and you're good. 

[egd5]

"With the most common start position for PCC being butstock at belt, which means the muzzle is elevated, potentially above the berm."

 

NO, it doesn't mean that. The muzzle does not have to be elevated. Stock on belt with muzzle level, or parallel to ground should be the proper way. 

[gunshrink]

This was a question on my RO test and I believe it was early start no DQ - have the test at my office so will check in the morning but I got it right so must have been it. Not PCC but shot before beep after make ready. Will get back on this. 

[gunshrink]

16 hours ago, gunshrink said:

This was a question on my RO test and I believe it was early start no DQ - have the test at my office so will check in the morning but I got it right so must have been it. Not PCC but shot before beep after make ready. Will get back on this. 

Found the test and that is exactly (at least according to NROI) the right answer - 8.3.4.1 - referred to a pistol not PCC but don't think it would be any different.

 

8.3.4.1  In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely ("false start" prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

[TRPOperator]

4 hours ago, gunshrink said:

Found the test and that is exactly (at least according to NROI) the right answer - 8.3.4.1 - referred to a pistol not PCC but don't think it would be any different.

 

8.3.4.1  In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely ("false start" prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

 

That would apply if the RO had given the command of "standby".

 

Based on the OP the RO had on given the "are you ready command" So creeping or a false start would be after the "standby" command. 

 

So according to the rule book

 

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

I would argue 10.5 does apply and based on the rule is says examples include. but not limited to:

So I think an RO could DQ someone based on during the commands the shooter disengages the safety and discharged the weapon. 

That could and should be considered unsafe gun handling. Had the RO given the standby command it could possibly fall under 8.3.4.1, bust based on the OP he was at the 

"are you ready" command. 

 

[KellyB]

.

[broadside72]

On 4/11/2020 at 9:48 PM, TRPOperator said:

 

That would apply if the RO had given the command of "standby".

 

Based on the OP the RO had on given the "are you ready command" So creeping or a false start would be after the "standby" command. 

 

So according to the rule book

 

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

I would argue 10.5 does apply and based on the rule is says examples include. but not limited to:

So I think an RO could DQ someone based on during the commands the shooter disengages the safety and discharged the weapon. 

That could and should be considered unsafe gun handling. Had the RO given the standby command it could possibly fall under 8.3.4.1, bust based on the OP he was at the 

"are you ready" command. 

 

What already got shot down by an RMI earlier in the thread is "shoehorning" the rule to fit.  But whatever, if it was not meant to be used, then that language would not be in the rule book.

[TRPOperator]

21 hours ago, broadside72 said:

What already got shot down by an RMI earlier in the thread is "shoehorning" the rule to fit.  But whatever, if it was not meant to be used, then that language would not be in the rule book.

Maybe I missed this as well, but I reviewed the several pages and never saw if the OP ever answered the question of if the shooter was at the are you ready or the standby. To me that would make the difference of if it was a false start or unsafe

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, TRPOperator said:

Maybe I missed this as well, but I reviewed the several pages and never saw if the OP ever answered the question of if the shooter was at the are you ready or the standby. To me that would make the difference of if it was a false start or unsafe

OP says after are you ready and we assume before standby

[pjb45]

NROI answered this in the email that was sent out recently.  No DQ. Restart. 

[broadside72]

2 hours ago, pjb45 said:

NROI answered this in the email that was sent out recently.  No DQ. Restart. 

still don't agree but we have the official ruling now

[ima45dv8]

22 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

still don't agree but we have the official ruling now

Not a 'ruling'. Confirmation.

[AHI]

read it for your self rule numbers  and every thing.

https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/false-start-or-dq/

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, AHI said:

read it for your self rule numbers  and every thing.

https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/false-start-or-dq/

Still not a ruling unless voted on by the board. 
 But I read the whole piece and all was well until DNROI actually blamed the RO. How do they know the RO noticed the shooter flipped off the safety before the beep?