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PCC Accidental Discharge - Cite the rule for the DQ


Jollymon32

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I live in North Dakota ... I hope that's not the ND to which you refer.
 
In the meantime, could you do me a favor and tell me where in the USPSA Rules the term ND is used and/or defined.  If you cannot, then under OUR rules there is no such term and no provision to DQ some for whatever it is.
 
You cannot DQ someone for violations you create that do not exist in the rules.
Fine it's an AD but there is no such thing as an accidental discharge in my opinion, especially the case described in the OP.

But again first line of 10.5 is includes but not limited to
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I am learning something from this thread.  Before reading it, if this happened while i was the RO, i would have called a DQ and cited the 10.4.3 , following the 8.3.1 logic that waktasz outlined. So clearly, a part of me is in agreement with the folks that call for the DQ and i am surprised to see that it isn't. 

 

However the other part now also clearly sees the reasoning and rule citations from the senior members of the NROI core. And if this  same situation happens to me now and i as an RO can save the time by not calling the RM (who at a local club would of course side with the RO's call and probably wouldn't even know the rules) and not ruin someone's day - that's a great thing!   So I dont know about changing the wording of the rule book... but could this be a topic for the next official clarifications email from the DNROI or at least a blog post?

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14 hours ago, George Jones said:

Shoe horn.

UGH rules (10.5) deal with scenarios when the gun does not go BANG! 

(Shooting at close steel is the only exception)

ADs fall under 10.4

 

 

Unintentionally lighting one off sure seems like unsafe gun handling to me.  If it's not what could possibly fall into that category? 

 

So like if I have my finger on the trigger when I'm not shooting at something that's unsafe and a DQ. But if my finger then pulls the trigger it's no longer unsafe gun handling so I'm good. 

 

If I say pull my gun from my holster and I'm not in the safe area that's a DQ for unsafe gun handling. But if I say shoot a snake with it I'm good because I shot the gun and didn't just play with it. 

 

Luckily I shoot a Sig, so if I drop it and it goes off I'm good. It's only unsafe if it doesn't go bang.

 

I'm seeing how this works now. 

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16 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

You can't really interject your opinion on the position of the rifle if the round went downrange and impacted the berm. It's perfectly legal to fire a shot before the rifle gets to your shoulder/face, or before you move the rifle at all for that matter.  And actually, that makes me curious as to what the start position was. OP? 

 

 

It doesn't bother me if you believe that, and I'd be perfectly happy to be overruled by the RM or arb committee, but as described it sounds like a dq in my book.

 

fwiw, we already interject our opinions in other similar situations, such as an AD when moving. We judge whether the shooter was actually aiming at targets, or whether it was an AD, and we use pretty much the same thought process. It's pretty easy to tell when someone intends to shoot and is a little bit early, vs has no intention to shoot and the gun goes off anyway.

 

I think waktasz and bench have provided the clear reasoning that I would use as an RO.

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I have tried to explain the various rules at play here.  Speculative hyperbole serves no useful purpose.

If the rules are inadequate, there is a process to change them.  Until that happens, they stand.

I will leave you to your group conclusions.

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On 3/15/2020 at 8:16 PM, Jollymon32 said:

PCC shooter at a USPSA match, comes to the line, they are issued the MAKE READY command.  Shooter fiddles with the PCC, sets the safety, and assumes the start position.

 

RO issues the ARE YOU READY command, and for some strange reason, before the BEEP,  shooter fires off a round that impacts the rear berm (no 180 violation, more than 10' away).

 

DQ, seems obvious.  However, cite a rule for the DQ.

 

 

sounds like a premature start.

What rule do you think makes it a DQ?

Is this a search on a way to "Get" a shooter?

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1 hour ago, bret said:

sounds like a premature start.

What rule do you think makes it a DQ?

Is this a search on a way to "Get" a shooter?

Totally confused here and I am noting that I am not a certified RO just a lot of PCC & shooting experience. Not trying to get a shooter DQ'ed if anything we go out of our way to help & warn before unsafe practices happen.

 

No where in the original post does it say that it was at a target. The shooter took the safety off, had finger on trigger and lit one into the back berm, not in the direction of a target. 

 

Now my only question would be, was the PCC on his shoulder pointing in the general direction of a target when it was fired, then premature start, no DQ. if it was stock on belt facing downrange, or still at low ready, then unsafe gun handling, Obvious DQ.

 

gerritm

Edited by gerritm
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Given the range command sequence defined by the OP, the shooter is technically still under "Make Ready". AD's during Make Ready are clearly a DQ. Just because the "Are you ready" command was issued doesn't automatically transition the situation outside of the Make Ready state. Think of how many times you have seen it happen where a shooter is making ready and the RO thinks they are done and issue the "Are you ready" command only to get a declining response from the shooter because they are not finished with their Make Ready process.

 

I will also point out that there is clearly a difference between a shot fired during a "False Start" scenario where the shooter is actively engaging a target vs cooking off a round randomly which also luckily still remains inside the berm but clearly didn't happen while engaging a target.

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I have shot with several guys who either double plug/muffs or are just plain hard of hearing or have amplified muffs and pick up the beep from another bay. Lots of reasons for a false start and have seen it happen.

 

So really would need more info on where the PCC was when it fired.

 

gerritm

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

It doesn't bother me if you believe that, and I'd be perfectly happy to be overruled by the RM or arb committee, but as described it sounds like a dq in my book.

 

fwiw, we already interject our opinions in other similar situations, such as an AD when moving. We judge whether the shooter was actually aiming at targets, or whether it was an AD, and we use pretty much the same thought process. It's pretty easy to tell when someone intends to shoot and is a little bit early, vs has no intention to shoot and the gun goes off anyway.

 

I think waktasz and bench have provided the clear reasoning that I would use as an RO.

 

I'm still curious as to whether "stand by" had been issued, and what the start position was. 

 

As to comparing it to an AD while moving (10.4.6), that's not apples to apples. The difference being that there is a specific rule addressing that type of AD, or rather, a rule classifying a discharge during movement AS and AD. In that situation the only judgment the RO can make is whether or not a target was being engaged.

 

The same doesn't currently hold true for the situation described in the OP. There is no parameter (such as movement) defined by the rule book for the RO to judge. There is also no "10.4" rule that addresses or categories the discharge in question (as described by the OP) as an "AD".  "He didn't intend to shoot" under 10.5 really is pretty much a shoehorn as George described. 

 

(Again, I'd want to DQ the guy if he obviously cooked one off.... but it would be tough to apply a specific rule to the situation if he protested.) 

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42 minutes ago, gerritm said:

Now my only question would be, was the PCC on his shoulder pointing in the general direction of a target when it was fired, then premature start, no DQ. if it was stock on belt facing downrange, or still at low ready, then unsafe gun handling, Obvious DQ.

 

I don't know of any PCC shooter that doesn't start with the muzzle pointing towards their first target, especially if they're not moving. I can't even begin to count the number of targets I've shot from the belt (or otherwise "not shouldered") presented with "one target and move" stages.

 

The rulebook doesn't make exceptions for opinions. Cite the rules or it's not a DQ.

 

The inability to simply pull out a printed rulebook at a match (yes you can pay to have one made) just leads to more things like this where a shooter gets the screws because match staff doesn't know the appropriate rules and just "guess" based upon their opinion.

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38 minutes ago, gerritm said:

Totally confused here and I am noting that I am not a certified RO just a lot of PCC & shooting experience. Not trying to get a shooter DQ'ed if anything we go out of our way to help & warn before unsafe practices happen.

 

No where in the original post does it say that it was at a target. The shooter took the safety off, had finger on trigger and lit one into the back berm, not in the direction of a target. 

 

Now my only question would be, was the PCC on his shoulder pointing in the general direction of a target when it was fired, then premature start, no DQ. if it was stock on belt facing downrange, or still at low ready, then unsafe gun handling, Obvious DQ.

 

gerritm

 

"At a target" isn't really a requirement per the rule book though. 

There's nothing that says "In the event of a false start, you are DQ'd if your first shot isn't close enough to a target".  

 

This is why rules like 10.4.1 and 10.4.2 exist instead of a rule that says "A shot which occurs while drawing", or  "A shot which isn't in the direction of a target". 

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Letter of the law vs. Spirit of the law...

 

I admit that on a couple occasions, I have (as Moto stated very well) observed a shooter having an "Oh S#!t" moment after firing a shot that I would call an AD, but that the rulebook maybe wouldn't. Those situations didn't strictly fit the rulebook definition, but I called Stop anyway. In those cases I would have a private, quiet talk with the shooter, and most times after a moment of reflection (and letting the adrenaline level drop) they would admit they didn't intend to fire the shot. At that point they weren't asking what rule I would cite. They were declaring themselves Done after examining and absorbing what just happened. All's well that ends well there. 

 

Over time, I learned that to be the best RO I could, I needed to back up an action with a rule. Every time. I'm not a fan of the catch-all UGH method. It makes me feel a bit lazy. I have to do better than leaning on the "but not limited to..." phrasing. Was the shooter still under "Make Ready"? I don't think so. Charlie said he felt that "Are You Ready" didn't change that, but unless the shooter gives a negative response (no indication here that he did), we're past that and the associated Load phase. 

 

Please know this -- I would desperately want to follow waktasz's advice and "send this clown packing", but I have taken my training to heart and made it my personal standard to have a rule to validate every action of that magnitude. Others may choose differently. 

 

=============

*Some of the most shameful behavior I've ever seen in this sport were people who have successfully arbitrated a safety-related DQ and won (often because an incorrect rule was cited), and then felt justified after weaseling their way back in the match. I have totally lost all respect for some folks after they did something that. . .slimey. They should have admitted their fault, put away their gear and grabbed a role of pasters. 

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PCCs are getting a free pass here.

 

Pistols have safety on or hammer down requirements when holstered/staged but a PCC held in the hand before a start signal don't have a DQ rule for no safety enabled. The fact that the shooter popped one off before the start signal and did not appear to be in the process of starting a COF (starting to move) seems like a unsafe gun handling to me, but hey apparently the rules are black and white and set in stone as written even though "but not limited to" is first line in bold print.  

 

 

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18 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

=============

*Some of the most shameful behavior I've ever seen in this sport were people who have successfully arbitrated a safety-related DQ and won (often because an incorrect rule was cited), and then felt justified after weaseling their way back in the match.

I had that happen to me. I seem to recall calling an AD but RM was called and shooter said it’s not an AD, it’s Unsafe gun handling so I made the wrong call. RM let the shooter stay in the match.

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9 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

PCCs are getting a free pass here.

 

Pistols have safety on or hammer down requirements when holstered/staged but a PCC held in the hand before a start signal don't have a DQ rule for no safety enabled. The fact that the shooter popped one off before the start signal and did not appear to be in the process of starting a COF (starting to move) seems like a unsafe gun handling to me, but hey apparently the rules are black and white and set in stone as written even though "but not limited to" is first line in bold print.  

 

 

 

OP states that the safety was engaged. 

We can only assume the shooter flipped the safety off before/as he fired the shot.  

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5 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

OP states that the safety was engaged. 

We can only assume the shooter flipped the safety off before/as he fired the shot.  

 

And if I flip the safety off on my holstered 1911 I go home. That is the comparison I am trying to make.

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31 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

And if I flip the safety off on my holstered 1911 I go home. That is the comparison I am trying to make.

 

You have to remove the "holstered" parameter from the comparison though.

I'm not saying that I LIKE the fact that there is no similar condition for a PCC, but currently their isn't. 

 

You could apply a false start to a PCC shooter disengaging the safety before the buzzer... but that's about it.  

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1 minute ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

You have to remove the "holstered" parameter from the comparison though.

I'm not saying that I LIKE the fact that there is no similar condition for a PCC, but currently their isn't. 

 

You could apply a false start to a PCC shooter disengaging the safety before the buzzer... but that's about it.  

 

hence my "PCC are getting a free pass"

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5 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

hence my "PCC are getting a free pass"

 

No argument there, ha. 

 

ALTHOUGH.... No PCC start position requires you to sweep yourself, or point the gun at yourself (as do the majority of holsters used in USPSA).  

That fact dictates the strict mechanical safety rule for holstered pistols. 

 

A more linear comparison to PCC.... would be that Steel Challenge doesn't require the safety be engaged at all. 

Edited by Ssanders224
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This has been quite informative for me. I’ve read it all, and clearly hear what George and others are saying. I have no experience RO’ing a PCC shooter, but I’m having a hard time coming to grips with the idea that an inadvertently discharged PCC after the Make Ready command wouldn’t be a DQ for unsafe gun handling.

It just doesn’t make sense, and I would expect the next round of rule updates will correct this. Maybe with more experience I would understand it differently, but for now, I can only see this as a DQ for UGH.


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1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

 

And if I flip the safety off on my holstered 1911 I go home. That is the comparison I am trying to make.

 

26 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

You have to remove the "holstered" parameter from the comparison though.

 

 

I would think this would be like a pistol shooter drawing his gun not aiming and sending one, just getting lucky and hit the berm. I would assume the pistol shooter doesn't DQ either he just get restarted just like the PCC shooter. 

 

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8.2.3.1 Says that PCC safety must be applied if carbine is loaded  after the standby & before the start with finger outside the trigger guard.

 

You all missed my point. Not enough info on what happened to determine false start, unsafe gun handling, DQ or no DQ or what rule to apply.

 

Knowing & seeing thru the  RO's eyes  that he aimed at a target trying to anticipate the beep off his shoulder or hip is way different than randomly lighting one off his start position. That would be the RO's decision to make.

 

gerritm

 

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36 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I would think this would be like a pistol shooter drawing his gun not aiming and sending one, just getting lucky and hit the berm. I would assume the pistol shooter doesn't DQ either he just get restarted just like the PCC shooter. 

 

Good points.

What about the production shooter that has a brain fart while making ready and pulls the trigger before grabbing/lowering the hammer on their CZ? 

What about a classifier with multiple strings. Shooter shoots first string and during make ready for second string does a practice draw with a still loaded gun. Has a brain fart and draws and aims down range and touches one off. I guess this OK now?

I have seen both of these happen at level 4 matches and they were DQ'ed.

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