3-Gun Recession?

[TonytheTiger]

Some of the best open shooters I know are shooting slide ride dots. What is so bad about open that so many want to avoid it but still sprinkle the bits they like into other divisions?

 

Open is a lot cheaper now than a couple years ago. Guns like the VR80 have pretty much lowered the bar of entry down to Tac Optics levels.

[Gene_WI]

27 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Some of the best open shooters I know are shooting slide ride dots. What is so bad about open that so many want to avoid it but still sprinkle the bits they like into other divisions?

 

Open is a lot cheaper now than a couple years ago. Guns like the VR80 have pretty much lowered the bar of entry down to Tac Optics levels.

 

What pistol are these dots mounted on. A 2011 running 9 major with a comp, huge magwell and 170mm mags?

 

Open is expensive no matter how you slice it or dice it. Sure you can run a stock glock with a red dot on it, but its not competitive set up. I like open and its the king of division both in 3 gun and USPSA. But open is not carry optics , and as I said before carry optics are the future for duty, defense, and carry pistols.

[TonytheTiger]

A lot of them are just Limited 2011's with a dot. No comp, 9mm minor, maybe one big stick. A lot of my acquaintances have moved to open and the mag fed shotgun is the only real gamechanger. All the other little things get lost in the noise when you have 3 different guns to manage in a stage. 

[mpeltier]

Someone had to sprinkle the bits when Tac Optics was conceived. Why is it "Tac Optics" when the only optic allowed is on only one of your three firearms? Who sprinkled the bits in USPSA when magwells were allowed on limited guns. Theres bits sprinkled everywhere when you look hard enough. Open, to be competitive takes a lot more than just a Tactical slide ride optic. I have taken heat for saying a slide mounted optic should be allowed in Tac-Optic. On the shotgun too for that matter. For those that are afraid to have optics competing in a division that historically has had iron sight pistols and shotguns I say, get over it. Sooner or later a match director somewhere will see the light and allow what more and more competitors are asking for. Put the Optics in Tac-Optics division. That would get me excited about 3-gun again.

Edited January 1, 2020 by mpeltier

[Rookie]

SMM3G offered "Stealth Division" starting in 2016, that allows slide mounted optics on pistol and shotgun.  It is effectively the Tac Ops alternative mentioned by mpeltier above.  For the 2019 match, 42 competitors signed up in the Stealth division (11% of the total competitors).  This compares to 84 (22%) in Open and 168 (44%) in Tactical.  My analysis of the numbers for the last 3 years indicate that most of the Stealth Division competitors were pulled from the Tactical (Tac-Optics) division.  Equipment rules can be found in the rules posted on the Rio Multigun website.

[1chota]

59 minutes ago, mpeltier said:

Someone had to sprinkle the bits when Tac Optics was conceived. Why is it "Tac Optics" when the only optic allowed is on only one of your three firearms? Who sprinkled the bits in USPSA when magwells were allowed on limited guns. Theres bits sprinkled everywhere when you look hard enough. Open, to be competitive takes a lot more than just a Tactical slide ride optic to truly be competitive. I have taken heat for saying a slide mounted optic should be allowed in Tac-Optic. On the shotgun too for that matter. For those that are afraid to have optics competing in a division that historically has had iron sight pistols and shotguns I say, get over it. Sooner or later a match director somewhere will see the light and allow what more and more competitors are asking for. Put the Optics in Tac-Optics division. That would get me excited about 3-gun again.

Muchas gracias amigo.  Being a most definitely over the hill shooter; ( I can no longer see irons sights clearly), I have proffered up the idea of letting of (at least) those over 65 to use red dots on the pistols.  If "tactical" really means tactical, why not red dots on all guns?

 

[Gene_WI]

1 hour ago, mpeltier said:

Someone had to sprinkle the bits when Tac Optics was conceived. Why is it "Tac Optics" when the only optic allowed is on only one of your three firearms? Who sprinkled the bits in USPSA when magwells were allowed on limited guns. Theres bits sprinkled everywhere when you look hard enough. Open, to be competitive takes a lot more than just a Tactical slide ride optic to truly be competitive. I have taken heat for saying a slide mounted optic should be allowed in Tac-Optic. On the shotgun too for that matter. For those that are afraid to have optics competing in a division that historically has had iron sight pistols and shotguns I say, get over it. Sooner or later a match director somewhere will see the light and allow what more and more competitors are asking for. Put the Optics in Tac-Optics division. That would get me excited about 3-gun again.

And a +1 on this. Slide mounted optics belong in tactical.

[HRider]

The trend around my area is to avoid all of the different divisions and just have Open matches. It is run what you brung, trophies for 1-3 or 1-5, depending on the match, and high mil, high leo, high junior and high lady. That is much simpler for a match director to manage and score. It has not really been an equipment race either. Some people use their open pistols, but a lot have carry optic pistols and regular limited minor pistols. I have not seen a tank brake on a rifle yet, but several use bags or bipods. Most matches are 2 gun, (carbine and pistol), but there will be a 3 gun every now and then.

Hurley

[StealthyBlagga]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:39 AM, Gene_WI said:

 

I respectfully disagree on divisions. Currently there is no "carry optics" equivalent in 3 gun, and that sucks. RDS equipped pistols are the  future, and the current reality. There needs to be division for these that is not open.

 

Comps etc... There need to be clear rules on these, and also rules for suppressors on rifles.

 

All of these issues are addressed HERE . Stealth Division accommodates CO-type pistols. The rules on muzzle devices, including suppressors, are clear. Several matches across the country have adopted these rules... maybe ask your local MD to consider doing so?

[mpeltier]

On 12/31/2019 at 5:20 PM, Rookie said:

SMM3G offered "Stealth Division" starting in 2016, that allows slide mounted optics on pistol and shotgun.  It is effectively the Tac Ops alternative mentioned by mpeltier above.  For the 2019 match, 42 competitors signed up in the Stealth division (11% of the total competitors).  This compares to 84 (22%) in Open and 168 (44%) in Tactical.  My analysis of the numbers for the last 3 years indicate that most of the Stealth Division competitors were pulled from the Tactical (Tac-Optics) division.  Equipment rules can be found in the rules posted on the Rio Multigun website.

 

Ive always liked the idea of the Stealth division. Although I always thought it was unnecessary. Tac-Optics just needed one tiny rule change and we would have it. Theres a lot of people that think my M&P with an optic is going to make me jump from a B shooter to a GM. LOL. I wish.

 

Out of curiosity in stealth division when combined in the overall for scores how do the finishes compare? are you seeing Stealth competitors dominating the Tac-Optics crowd?

[StealthyBlagga]

6 hours ago, mpeltier said:

 

Ive always liked the idea of the Stealth division. Although I always thought it was unnecessary. Tac-Optics just needed one tiny rule change and we would have it. Theres a lot of people that think my M&P with an optic is going to make me jump from a B shooter to a GM. LOL. I wish.

 

Out of curiosity in stealth division when combined in the overall for scores how do the finishes compare? are you seeing Stealth competitors dominating the Tac-Optics crowd?

 

Tactical/Tac Scope/Tac Optics has become a monstrosity, especially the shotguns which are ludicrous. However, being the most popular and "standard" of all the divisions, there is tremendous resistance to changing it. That's why we created Stealth... it's a sandbox to explore what Tactical Division should be. Stealth is more than just optics on a pistol (in fact, I stuck with irons in favor of more ammo). The pistol can be single-action and ported/compensated so long as it fits in the Stealth box, the rifle is essentially unrestricted except for mag capacity (max 30 rounds), and the shotgun rules specifically limit the magazine tube length so a Stealth shotgun is short and handy (as all shotgun should be) although ghost-loading at start is allowed. Stealth was designed to allow a Tactical shooter to switch divisions with almost no equipment changes and remain competitive - all that is needed is to sub in a shorter shotgun magazine tube.

 

As for results, bear in mind that - like USPSA - high overall results are not a thing. With this said, you can see how the top Tactical and Stealth shooters compare by reviewing the results for SMM3G 2019. Bottom line is that the results are too close to call (86% vs 83%, with age likely being a bigger factor than equipment). The winner of Stealth Division ran an iron sighted pistol.

Edited January 2, 2020 by StealthyBlagga

[CharlieD]

Stealth division is the greatest thing to happen in 3gun.  I would love to see stealth division at other matches.  Actually, I think you could do away with tac-ops in favor of stealth.  Or, perhaps an easier pill to swallow, keep the tac-ops name using stealth rules.  
 

 

[davsco]

not getting the stealth division.  full size rifle is ok, AND bipod (which isn't even allowed in tac optics/limited).  ditto for unlimited rifle and shotgun optics.  shotgun can have full length barrel.  but handgun has to fit in a box.  if one is carrying all that hardware around, seems pistol size is the least of their concerns.  that said, add'l divisions don't bother me, just another button to click in practiscore.

[Sean_ht]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:58 AM, TonytheTiger said:

But as an outsider looking in I'd like to hear what division you would create that would draw you to 3 gun.

It is not about one division that I would like. This topic is not about one specific taste. You are missing my point. The more division you have, the more inclusive the system will be. This is based on assumption that divisions are designed right. For example, if USPSA/Steel-Challenge divided their divisions based on caliber, instead of PF, I consider that as a less efficient approach. PF gives the 9mm guys the option to compete as major 9 load or minor, but does not exclude them as a division in 3GN does. 

[davsco]

yeah other than limiting handgun size, and shotgun tube to 24", stealth is way closer to open than tac optics/limited.  all three guns can have ports/comps, optics, etc.  if i were going to make a separate division to allow carry optics handguns i'd just make it same as tac ops/limited but with CO, so CO Ltd or something like that.

[Gene_WI]

18 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

All of these issues are addressed HERE . Stealth Division accommodates CO-type pistols. The rules on muzzle devices, including suppressors, are clear. Several matches across the country have adopted these rules... maybe ask your local MD to consider doing so?

 

This is a very nice rule set. I think the stealth division is a good way of dealing with "carry optics" like set ups. I will for sure talk to my local match director about these rules.

[Bryan 45]

3 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

It is not about one division that I would like. This topic is not about one specific taste. You are missing my point. The more division you have, the more inclusive the system will be. This is based on assumption that divisions are designed right. For example, if USPSA/Steel-Challenge divided their divisions based on caliber, instead of PF, I consider that as a less efficient approach. PF gives the 9mm guys the option to compete as major 9 load or minor, but does not exclude them as a division in 3GN does. 

Everyone gets more trophies?


As a long time Heavy Metal shooter, I eventually gave up on the division because I was shooting against the same small pool of guys all the time.  If red dots weren't so popular, I'd be happy with just Open and Tac. But having a different division for every shooter so black guns don't have to compete directly against tan guns doesn't do anything for the sport or it's participants. 

 

I've never liked Steel Challenge, and that's one of the primary reasons.  Too many divisions.  When you have to look at overall results just to compare yourself to more than one or two shooters, it's too diluted.   

 

 

[TonytheTiger]

5 hours ago, Bryan 45 said:

Everyone gets more trophies?


As a long time Heavy Metal shooter, I eventually gave up on the division because I was shooting against the same small pool of guys all the time.  If red dots weren't so popular, I'd be happy with just Open and Tac. But having a different division for every shooter so black guns don't have to compete directly against tan guns doesn't do anything for the sport or it's participants. 

 

I've never liked Steel Challenge, and that's one of the primary reasons.  Too many divisions.  When you have to look at overall results just to compare yourself to more than one or two shooters, it's too diluted.   

 

 

Yes.

[TonytheTiger]

9 hours ago, Sean_ht said:

It is not about one division that I would like. This topic is not about one specific taste. You are missing my point. The more division you have, the more inclusive the system will be. This is based on assumption that divisions are designed right. For example, if USPSA/Steel-Challenge divided their divisions based on caliber, instead of PF, I consider that as a less efficient approach. PF gives the 9mm guys the option to compete as major 9 load or minor, but does not exclude them as a division in 3GN does. 

Inclusive? Or diluted? 3 gun is not for everyone. Its hard, its expensive, there's tons of opportunities for mistakes or malfunctions, matches take longer, you have to be decent with 3 completely different guns, you have to keep them running, I could write a book on the reasons I've heard lately for people not to like 3 gun. I'm beginning to realize there's just not as many people that like the challenge as there used to be, and the last thing I'm going to do is turn 3 gun into a different sport just to bring in people that don't even like 3 gun.

 

Also, you can use 9 minor, 9 major, 40 or 45 in any of the 3 main divisions, the only caliber restriction is in Heavy and thats kind of besides the point since Heavy is dead.

Edited January 2, 2020 by TonytheTiger

[Sean_ht]

8 hours ago, Bryan 45 said:

Everyone gets more trophies?


As a long time Heavy Metal shooter, I eventually gave up on the division because I was shooting against the same small pool of guys all the time.  If red dots weren't so popular, I'd be happy with just Open and Tac. But having a different division for every shooter so black guns don't have to compete directly against tan guns doesn't do anything for the sport or it's participants. 

 

I've never liked Steel Challenge, and that's one of the primary reasons.  Too many divisions.  When you have to look at overall results just to compare yourself to more than one or two shooters, it's too diluted.   

 

 

You are missing the point. I suggest you go to one of the USPSA/Steel_Challenge matches and you can see it is not about black vs tan gun. 

[StealthyBlagga]

12 hours ago, davsco said:

yeah other than limiting handgun size, and shotgun tube to 24", stealth is way closer to open than tac optics/limited.  all three guns can have ports/comps, optics, etc.  if i were going to make a separate division to allow carry optics handguns i'd just make it same as tac ops/limited but with CO, so CO Ltd or something like that.

 

The Stealth shotgun's biggest difference vs. Open is that only a tube mag is allowed and it must be loaded by hand - no speed loaders or box mags. While porting and optics are allowed, they are not as consequential as you might imagine - lots of folks run non ported ribbed barrels and do just fine. Stealth shotgun rules are much closer to Tac Ops than Open, but the dedicated guns have shorter barrels to match the shorter mag tube, making them much more handy and practical..

Edited January 3, 2020 by StealthyBlagga

[Sean_ht]

2 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Inclusive? Or diluted? 3 gun is not for everyone. Its hard, its expensive, there's tons of opportunities for mistakes or malfunctions, matches take longer, you have to be decent with 3 completely different guns, you have to keep them running, I could write a book on the reasons I've heard lately for people not to like 3 gun. I'm beginning to realize there's just not as many people that like the challenge as there used to be, and the last thing I'm going to do is turn 3 gun into a different sport just to bring in people that don't even like 3 gun.

 

Also, you can use 9 minor, 9 major, 40 or 45 in any of the 3 main divisions, the only caliber restriction is in Heavy and thats kind of besides the point since Heavy is dead.

I am not sure what is your point, I thought the goal of this topic was to make the 3GNs more attractive.

Back to your respond, basically what you said after the word "diluted" is somehow adding more divisions to the 3GNs makes it easier!?!  So if we have more people shooting at a 3GNs match, all of a sudden it becomes "deluted"?!

I don't want to make a general topic, into a personal debate. I made my points, and you expressed your thoughts. Good luck at your 3GNs match. One day, we may bump in one those matches. 

 

[TonytheTiger]

On 12/31/2019 at 4:54 PM, Gene_WI said:

And a +1 on this. Slide mounted optics belong in tactical.

You said in a previous post "Stop trying to be all inclusive".

Now you see an idea you like and we should suddenly be more inclusive.

[TonytheTiger]

40 minutes ago, Sean_ht said:

I am not sure what is your point, I thought the goal of this topic was to make the 3GNs more attractive.

Back to your respond, basically what you said after the word "diluted" is somehow adding more divisions to the 3GNs makes it easier!?!  So if we have more people shooting at a 3GNs match, all of a sudden it becomes "deluted"?!

I don't want to make a general topic, into a personal debate. I made my points, and you expressed your thoughts. Good luck at your 3GNs match. One day, we may bump in one those matches. 

 

I reread my post and I apparently got lost on a rant that didn't pertain to the sentence before it. 

If there was a connection it was that everyone that starts 3 gun has some idea of some gear they wish they could use. But you can't, and you get over it and play by the rules. If we let people play the personalized division game there will be 40 divisions this time next year and it will be diluted. 3 gun can't care about exactly what everyone wants. Because 3 gun is not your friend, it kinda sucks that way.

[Sean_ht]

1 hour ago, TonytheTiger said:

I reread my post and I apparently got lost on a rant that didn't pertain to the sentence before it. 

If there was a connection it was that everyone that starts 3 gun has some idea of some gear they wish they could use. But you can't, and you get over it and play by the rules. If we let people play the personalized division game there will be 40 divisions this time next year and it will be diluted. 3 gun can't care about exactly what everyone wants. Because 3 gun is not your friend, it kinda sucks that way.

This is the key point in your respond: "If we let people play the personalized division game, here will be 40 divisions ...".

That is exactly the reason that when you asked me "So what would your ideal division look like?", I said it is not my job to define an ideal division. It is not about an individual opinion or taste.