3-Gun Recession?

[Intheshaw1]

If you're getting into it and want to run an optic on your pistol, why not just go open or if you're UML then 2x4?

 

Sure, it's harder to compete and the gear is more expensive if you want to win but chances are you aren't winning anything if you're just getting into it. Most have a pistol and an AR and now the VR80 is really cheap so it's not unreasonable to just go open.

 

We have a lot of people shooting open so they don't have any restrictions on a slide dot but they also are just out to have fun. The common things I hear is they went open because they tried tac ops and hated reloading the shotgun. 

 

I'm thinking most people are shooting 3 gun to have fun, why not have them just go straight to open?

[Gene_WI]

11 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

You said in a previous post "Stop trying to be all inclusive".

Now you see an idea you like and we should suddenly be more inclusive.

 

Technology is advancing, division should do the same. Carry optics is the (current reality) and the inevitable future for duty/defense/carry handguns. These are not open guns, they need their own division. I think that USPSA got carry optics right.

[Gene_WI]

2 hours ago, Intheshaw1 said:

If you're getting into it and want to run an optic on your pistol, why not just go open or if you're UML then 2x4?

 

Sure, it's harder to compete and the gear is more expensive if you want to win but chances are you aren't winning anything if you're just getting into it. Most have a pistol and an AR and now the VR80 is really cheap so it's not unreasonable to just go open.

 

We have a lot of people shooting open so they don't have any restrictions on a slide dot but they also are just out to have fun. The common things I hear is they went open because they tried tac ops and hated reloading the shotgun. 

 

I'm thinking most people are shooting 3 gun to have fun, why not have them just go straight to open?

 

Our sport is practical shooting. Magfed shotguns are fun and awesome, but they have very little practical application. The VR80 might be a great entry level gamer gun, but it has zero purpose outside of that.

[Intheshaw1]

5 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

Our sport is practical shooting. Magfed shotguns are fun and awesome, but they have very little practical application. The VR80 might be a great entry level gamer gun, but it has zero purpose outside of that.

These shooting sports are all games, there is very little practical applications in 3 gun besides firearms handling, USPSA is even worse.

 

Some people may look at it as practical training but it's not. It's just a lot more fun than punching holes in a paper target at a static range.

 

Which is why I say just go open and have fun.

[Gene_WI]

7 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

These shooting sports are all games, there is very little practical applications in 3 gun besides firearms handling, USPSA is even worse.

 

Some people may look at it as practical training but it's not. It's just a lot more fun than punching holes in a paper target at a static range.

 

Which is why I say just go open and have fun.

 

I got into the shooting sports after training with Mike Pannone and PatMac. Both seem to think that USPSA is very practical training.

Learning the fine motor skills needed to reload a tube shotgun on the clock are very useful IMHO.

[Intheshaw1]

4 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

I got into the shooting sports after training with Mike Pannone and PatMac. Both seem to think that USPSA is very practical training.

Learning the fine motor skills needed to reload a tube shotgun on the clock are very useful IMHO.

I think we are looking at the practical aspects the same, which is why I said it's all about firearms handling. But most courses of fire are set up to be fun stages, not anything too practical.

 

A customized gamer tube fed shotgun is anything but practical, I'd lean towards saying it's less practical than mag fed shotgun.

 

If you want to use more practical firearms you're more than welcome to, but the vast majority of shooters I see are using gamer guns. I've done all kinds of training while serving in the infantry, and none of it resembled shooting sports. I do use it for training firearms handling skills, but it ends at that.

[Southpaw]

19 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

I got into the shooting sports after training with Mike Pannone and PatMac. Both seem to think that USPSA is very practical training.

Learning the fine motor skills needed to reload a tube shotgun on the clock are very useful IMHO.

 

Unless you're John Wick being able to quad load a shotgun has no use outside of 3 gun

[Gene_WI]

6 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

I think we are looking at the practical aspects the same, which is why I said it's all about firearms handling. But most courses of fire are set up to be fun stages, not anything too practical.

 

A customized gamer tube fed shotgun is anything but practical, I'd lean towards saying it's less practical than mag fed shotgun.

 

If you want to use more practical firearms you're more than welcome to, but the vast majority of shooters I see are using gamer guns. I've done all kinds of training while serving in the infantry, and none of it resembled shooting sports. I do use it for training firearms handling skills, but it ends at that.

 

I am in agreement. Shooting sports teach proper weapon handling, marksmanship, movement and they introduce some stress. Combat and tactics are a different beast, and I don;t think they can be made into a sport.

 

The gamer tube fed shotgun are probably the most impractical class of weapons I have seen in the shooting sports. 

 

Do you think there is room/need/interest in having a more practical division in 3gun? Or should there be a totally different sport?

 

I think USPSA got things right with carry optics. PRS is going through an existential crisis of gamer rifles and a general gear race. So I think the question of having more practical divisions is valid for many shooting sports, not just 3gun.

[DD78]

A whole lot of good discussion on 3 gun.  

 

I think to attract more new shooters to the sport, we should look at at niche of 2A to see what segment is growing the largest.  

 

From my perspective, it seems that the tactical Timmys are the largest growing segment, which is clearly seen by where STI seems to be focusing their 2011's.  Obviously they're not only focusing on tac Timmys, since they're making a big push into the LEO market, but by extension, the Timmys want that gear too.  How many race guns does STI have in their lineup?  Two, Three?  

 

3 gun should strongly consider a tactical Timmy division.  Name it whatever, but it seems shortsighted to not try to get this demographic into the sport.  For the most part, they're spending just as money on guns and gear as the median 3 gunner does, so they can certainly afford the sport.  

 

As far as gear requirements, I couldn't offer any insights, but there would need to be some factors that make it different from the other divisions....red dots on pistols without comps, maybe allowing tube fed shotguns with an optic, and a rifle with whatever they want, except for maybe a bipod.  30 round mags on rifles, maybe 8 round tubes max on shotguns, and for pistols, I don't know, whatever their mags can hold short of going beyond 140mm?  

 

A division like that may have already been tried, but I wouldn't know.  I only shoot tacops and don't really have an interest in any of the others.  

 

People do want red dots, and not be pushed into open, and creating a tactical Timmy sort of division would certainly fill that gap while also getting that demographic into the sport.  

[Intheshaw1]

I think people say they want practical but they really dont.

 

If you wanted a truly practical stage it would be no gamer belt and everything concealed and no IDPA gamer vests. You would start with a concealed pistol and mags and have to grab long guns from staged starts. And then would have to slowly work your way through a shoot house looking for the 1 bad guy with your weapon of choice. Sounds pretty boring but that's probably the most 'practical' application to what most people would need. And without the threat of someone shooting back, it wouldn't be much fun. This is where I think airsoft would come in.

 

I love 3 gun and think it's a rush, probably closest thing to clearing a house in war that I've experienced. But at the end of the day it's just a game to me that provides some useful skills. More importantly, I just want to have fun doing it.

[Gene_WI]

29 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

Unless you're John Wick being able to quad load a shotgun has no use outside of 3 gun

 

The ability to preform complex firearms related tasks on the clock is very useful. 

[Gene_WI]

59 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

I think people say they want practical but they really dont.

 

If you wanted a truly practical stage it would be no gamer belt and everything concealed and no IDPA gamer vests. You would start with a concealed pistol and mags and have to grab long guns from staged starts. And then would have to slowly work your way through a shoot house looking for the 1 bad guy with your weapon of choice. Sounds pretty boring but that's probably the most 'practical' application to what most people would need. And without the threat of someone shooting back, it wouldn't be much fun. This is where I think airsoft would come in.

 

I love 3 gun and think it's a rush, probably closest thing to clearing a house in war that I've experienced. But at the end of the day it's just a game to me that provides some useful skills. More importantly, I just want to have fun doing it.

 

What I think is needed in many shooting sports is a "practical" division when it comes to gear. This is a constant debate about what is "practical" in the shooting sports. USPSA production is a never ending drama fest in regards to this. Practical IMHO for 3gun would be, 5.56 rifle 30 round mags,  Tube fed shotgun 8+1 capacity, RDS equipped pistol 140mm mags no magwells no comps.

 

CCW, house clearing etc... training has no business in competition. I don't think we need that. There are other venues/events/methods to train for that.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Gene_WI

[Intheshaw1]

2 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

What I think is needed in many shooting sports is a "practical" division when it comes to gear. This is a constant debate about what is "practical" in the shooting sports. USPSA production is a never ending drama fest in regards to this. Practical IMHO for 3gun would be, 5.56 rifle 30 round mags,  Tube fed shotgun 8+1 capacity, RDS equipped pistol 140mm mags no magwells no comps.

 

CCW, house clearing etc... training has no business in competition. I don't think we need that. There are other venues/vents/methods to train for that.

I think the break down of divisions will go on forever because what I say is practical is different than what you say is different than what Joe Bob says, etc.

 

Your practical is nearly tac ops with the addition of RDS. If you want a tactical/practical division, I'd lean towards letting somewhat of an open division with capacity limits. Rifles at 30 rounds, shotguns at 5/6 rounds and pistols at 10/15 rounds. I don't think tube fed shotguns are any more practical than mag fed but if you limit total rounds then I believe you handicap the mag to the relative same times as a tube. 

 

But at the end of the day, people will always find something to complain about no matter what the breakdown of the divisions are, which is what I think Tony was hinting at. For me, I would have 3 divisions I think. A non magnified version of my division above, a magnified one, and open.

 

But then again, someone will complain....

[Gene_WI]

3 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

I think the break down of divisions will go on forever because what I say is practical is different than what you say is different than what Joe Bob says, etc.

 

Your practical is nearly tac ops with the addition of RDS. If you want a tactical/practical division, I'd lean towards letting somewhat of an open division with capacity limits. Rifles at 30 rounds, shotguns at 5/6 rounds and pistols at 10/15 rounds. I don't think tube fed shotguns are any more practical than mag fed but if you limit total rounds then I believe you handicap the mag to the relative same times as a tube. 

 

But at the end of the day, people will always find something to complain about no matter what the breakdown of the divisions are, which is what I think Tony was hinting at. For me, I would have 3 divisions I think. A non magnified version of my division above, a magnified one, and open.

 

But then again, someone will complain....

 

Its the nature of man, can't make everyone happy.

 

I think 3 divisions would be great, simplify things. As much as I want to see "heavy metal" be a thing again, less division complexity is better.

[Intheshaw1]

2 minutes ago, Gene_WI said:

 

Its the nature of man, can't make everyone happy.

 

I think 3 divisions would be great, simplify things. As much as I want to see "heavy metal" be a thing again, less division complexity is better.

That would be the idea. Round limits was based on what guns have when relatively stock. Anyone who wants to be a gamer can just run open class.

[Gene_WI]

5 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said:

That would be the idea. Round limits was based on what guns have when relatively stock. Anyone who wants to be a gamer can just run open class.

 

I think a bonus of having less divisions would be better designed stages at matches. You don't have to accommodate everyone, and can design challenging course of fire.

[TonytheTiger]

@Intheshaw1 every time I was about to post in here today I saw that you had already said exactly what I was about to, although perhaps more eloquently than I would. 

I even was about to post that there's nothing practical about carrying 3 guns around, and shotguns should go away for practicalities sake. A practical stage would be: shoot carry pistol into contact distance target till slide lock. Retrieve nearby staged short AR or AR pistol and engage a maximum of 3 targets at no more than 20 yards. The end.

And that would be a big stage. Practical matches sound horrible.

[TonytheTiger]

9 hours ago, DD78 said:

A whole lot of good discussion on 3 gun.  

 

I think to attract more new shooters to the sport, we should look at at niche of 2A to see what segment is growing the largest.  

 

From my perspective, it seems that the tactical Timmys are the largest growing segment, which is clearly seen by where STI seems to be focusing their 2011's.  Obviously they're not only focusing on tac Timmys, since they're making a big push into the LEO market, but by extension, the Timmys want that gear too.  How many race guns does STI have in their lineup?  Two, Three?  

 

3 gun should strongly consider a tactical Timmy division.  Name it whatever, but it seems shortsighted to not try to get this demographic into the sport.  For the most part, they're spending just as money on guns and gear as the median 3 gunner does, so they can certainly afford the sport.  

 

As far as gear requirements, I couldn't offer any insights, but there would need to be some factors that make it different from the other divisions....red dots on pistols without comps, maybe allowing tube fed shotguns with an optic, and a rifle with whatever they want, except for maybe a bipod.  30 round mags on rifles, maybe 8 round tubes max on shotguns, and for pistols, I don't know, whatever their mags can hold short of going beyond 140mm?  

 

A division like that may have already been tried, but I wouldn't know.  I only shoot tacops and don't really have an interest in any of the others.  

 

People do want red dots, and not be pushed into open, and creating a tactical Timmy sort of division would certainly fill that gap while also getting that demographic into the sport.  

I see Timmies at matches all the time. Most of their gear fits very well in limited. But they rarely come back, and I'm fairly certain its not the lack of a plate carrier division for them.

[DD78]

I see Timmies at matches all the time. Most of their gear fits very well in limited. But they rarely come back, and I'm fairly certain its not the lack of a plate carrier division for them.

 

Most are running a dot on their pistols so open is the only choice for them, and unless they’re planning on running a mag fed shotgun they won’t be competitive.

 

I think part of the reason some whose gear fits into limited don’t come back is because they suck at shooting a pistol, and quadloading is something that outside of John Wick, the timmys don’t really do.

 

I know me personally, when I started in 3 gun 4 years ago, I could have been considered a Timmy and the first match I shot highlighted how much I overestimated my pistol shooting skills. I suspect that this is what causes a Timmy to not come back, at least before dots became more prevalent on pistols.

 

Not to get too much into psychology, but it seems like timmys are the type to have extremely fragile egos, so if they get stuck in open and finish in the bottom 20%, it’ll disincentivize them from ever returning.

 

Just look at USPSA. Their two newest divisions largely cater to the Timmy crowd, and they’ve grown tremendously over the past two years. They also gave people who have sucked at shooting pistols the ability to have a dot, or give pistol up completely and shoot a rifle.

[TonytheTiger]

11 hours ago, DD78 said:

 

Most are running a dot on their pistols so open is the only choice for them, and unless they’re planning on running a mag fed shotgun they won’t be competitive.

 

I think part of the reason some whose gear fits into limited don’t come back is because they suck at shooting a pistol, and quadloading is something that outside of John Wick, the timmys don’t really do.

 

I know me personally, when I started in 3 gun 4 years ago, I could have been considered a Timmy and the first match I shot highlighted how much I overestimated my pistol shooting skills. I suspect that this is what causes a Timmy to not come back, at least before dots became more prevalent on pistols.

 

Not to get too much into psychology, but it seems like timmys are the type to have extremely fragile egos, so if they get stuck in open and finish in the bottom 20%, it’ll disincentivize them from ever returning.

 

Just look at USPSA. Their two newest divisions largely cater to the Timmy crowd, and they’ve grown tremendously over the past two years. They also gave people who have sucked at shooting pistols the ability to have a dot, or give pistol up completely and shoot a rifle.

I agree with most of what you're saying here. 

But from my experience in my area, if you finish 20% in open it means you would be 15-30% in tac ops and 30-40% in limited. And obviously no better overall which is what everyone I know is actually looking at. So if the division is created solely for the purpose of all 5 guys in it to finish between 60-100% in their division (but still 25% overall) then it really is just a feel good division.

[DD78]

3 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I agree with most of what you're saying here. 

But from my experience in my area, if you finish 20% in open it means you would be 15-30% in tac ops and 30-40% in limited. And obviously no better overall which is what everyone I know is actually looking at. So if the division is created solely for the purpose of all 5 guys in it to finish between 60-100% in their division (but still 25% overall) then it really is just a feel good division.

I think we're mostly in agreement, and I agree that at least in the beginning, it would be a feel good division.  To grow the sport, we really need to attract people who look at 3 gun and say "meh, it's not practical" or "that will get you kilt in da streets" lol.  How do we get that demographic into the sport?  They seem to spend money like it's going out of style, but they also aren't going to spend money on guns/gear that isn't "tactical".  

 

I'm actually surprised that the tac Timmys don't want to shoot 3 gun because it is great practice.  You're practicing accuracy at speed with movement, combined with firearms manipulations.  

 

I guess the question is how do you get the Timmys involved in 3 gun using gear they already own?  You can technically shoot limited and just use a pump, or out of the box semi that they already have, but you can't use a dot on your pistol, and it seems that most of them have gone in that direction.  They're going to get crushed in open which is the only choice if they believe that the dot on the pistol is the only way.  

 

I don't run matches so I have no idea how to get something like this to even work, especially since I'd never even shoot in that division lol.  Just trying to figure out how to get those guys involved in 3 gun.  

[Intheshaw1]

I think people should look at it as self improvement, not where they place if they are looking to get better. I've shot 3 gun with a couple cops who use their Dept issued gear, including pump shotgun. They end up towards the bottom but they are just looking for some more gun handling training with the gear they might actually need to use.

 

A pump gun by itself isn't the issue, it the lack of capacity. I keep coming back to my 3 divisions above and think limiting capacity may help some.

[SW39]

3 hours ago, DD78 said:

I guess the question is how do you get the Timmys involved in 3 gun using gear they already own?  You can technically shoot limited and just use a pump, or out of the box semi that they already have, but you can't use a dot on your pistol, and it seems that most of them have gone in that direction.  They're going to get crushed in open which is the only choice if they believe that the dot on the pistol is the only way.  

 

I don't run matches so I have no idea how to get something like this to even work, especially since I'd never even shoot in that division lol.  Just trying to figure out how to get those guys involved in 3 gun.  

IMO 3-Gun is an acquired taste, to me it is more like being a long distance runner compared to a sprinter, hurdler or short distance runner.  So if you are just coming out to the range to shoot quick and leave, most wont stick around, you need to make the matches a social event that once a month everyone enjoys spending a day out of the range, not staring at the clock...

As to divisions, I personally tell new shooters to shoot unlimited and don't care where you land.  Take the time to talk with people see what they are using and why they are shooting the division they are.  In a good social environment people will lend you equipment to try during a match.  As the MD at my club I purchased a VR-60 before the 80 came out have my M3K, both of which I let people try at matches.  I also bring a large selection of different shell carriers for people to borrow to help with the shotgun. 

 

I pushed last year for 3GN to add the UnlimitedX4 Div to bring the PCC into Unlimited, with UML 2x4 Open you have the option to shoot your PCC with a red dot, rather than your pistol and you have the pistol as backup, again a 4 gun Div.  The key is as a match director IMO to attract shooters is to give them healthy options, yes I am one of those people who's stage briefings all begin with start anywhere within the ffz with firearm of choice.  If it is steel (under 100 yards), your good to use pistol, pcc or birdshot,; paper can be pistol, rifle, pcc or slug, steel over 100yards rifle and clays are birdshot only.  But don't design a stage in my book that choreographs how everyone has to shoot the stages the exact same way.  Part of the fun is seeing how different people with different talents shoot a stage, by making everyone shoot the stage the exact same way, everyone becomes a copycat.  And promote open in my book as the entry division and enjoy and get a feel for what you like then branch out into another division.  For 2 years I used my 16 ga Ithica  model 37 pump and loaded 2.5" shells to be able to load 6, my STI-40 single stack with 8 round mags and iron-site AR and had loads of fun.  When there is a will and options those interested will join in the fun.  Those looking to be king of the mountain the first day in, will never last long doing anything, Just my 2 cents. 

 

 

[kellyn]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 9:51 PM, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Tactical/Tac Scope/Tac Optics has become a monstrosity, especially the shotguns which are ludicrous. However, being the most popular and "standard" of all the divisions, there is tremendous resistance to changing it. That's why we created Stealth... it's a sandbox to explore what Tactical Division should be. Stealth is more than just optics on a pistol (in fact, I stuck with irons in favor of more ammo). The pistol can be single-action and ported/compensated so long as it fits in the Stealth box, the rifle is essentially unrestricted except for mag capacity (max 30 rounds), and the shotgun rules specifically limit the magazine tube length so a Stealth shotgun is short and handy (as all shotgun should be) although ghost-loading at start is allowed. Stealth was designed to allow a Tactical shooter to switch divisions with almost no equipment changes and remain competitive - all that is needed is to sub in a shorter shotgun magazine tube.

 

As for results, bear in mind that - like USPSA - high overall results are not a thing. With this said, you can see how the top Tactical and Stealth shooters compare by reviewing the results for SMM3G 2019. Bottom line is that the results are too close to call (86% vs 83%, with age likely being a bigger factor than equipment). The winner of Stealth Division ran an iron sighted pistol.

Hey, what's with the age comment!   But yes I ran an iron sighted pistol because I preferred ammo capacity over RDS.  While I'm not sure about allowing RDS in Tac Optics, it is coming nonetheless, you can only fight the future for so long.  I like the Stealth box rule but don't think that it will be popular with the Tac Ops crowd who will want a RDS and full mag capacity. 

[kurtm]

I didn't hear anything about age.......but then again I am getting hard of hearing after all these years. The winner of who did what?

As for a recession, all things ebb and flow, and the simple truth is when prize tables "contracted" due to slowing in the market, 3-gun started recessing. But never fear all the big matches that are worth going to still fill to the brim......now get off my lawn you damn kids!!!