DD78

I've been shooting about 25 years, only 5 of which have been action shooting. For the first 20 years, I shot with one eye open. Once I started shooting USPSA and 3 gun it became apparent that the one eye method was slowing me down so I started practicing both eyes. 5 years later, and I still have issues with it, but each year it gets a little better. The best way to train yourself is lots of dry fire, which is one thing I'm ashamed to admit that I almost never do.

For the last year I've been focusing on entering positions, engagement order, and leaving positions. For your scenario, as others have said it's hard to take the multiple variables into account, but for arguments sake let's just say that your body and shoulders need to move to the right for targets a bit further down range from the current three you're engaging. Take this with a grain of salt because I'm not a GM or anything, but during my walk through I'd airgun it both ways and see which way puts my body into the correct position for the next array and next target. To me, I'd engage 3 open targets on the left from left to right knowing that if I'm shooting on the move on those three open targets, going from right to left will turn my shoulders away from what I want to go (to the right). Then I'd need to turn more to engage targets on the right than I would if I shot them left to right. I also shoot a lot of 3 gun which I'm a bit better at, and depending on when I see certain targets, I'll engage them the opposite way. For example if there are 4 clay targets on the right, but one of them is behind a barrel, I'll engage the three I can see going from farthest to nearest, and by the time I've shot the nearest one, I'll see the one hidden behind a barrel, even though that might put my body facing a position away from the next array of targets. I've noticed that all the high level shooters do this. They seem to do their best to eliminate extra distance between transitions, and putting their bodies into position for the next array.

Almost everyone I know shoots somewhere between a 6-8 MOA dot. I have a 6 MOA dot on my rimfire pistol, and honestly I wish I would have gone with an 8 MOA dot. I'm not overly practiced with a dot on a handgun, so I occasionally lose the dot in the window. With practice I'm sure this would improve, but when I've shot pistols with the 8 MOA dots, I don't seem to experience that same issue. I'd say that what you have is perfect. Shoot it for a while, and if you don't like then make a switch.

I don't know if someone's mentioned this, but I highly recommend the book "The ABC's of Reloading". It does a great job of walking a complete beginner through the basics. From there reading the loading manuals typically will give you a bit more info, and then start watching some reloading channels on youtube. Ultimate Reloader has videos where he's just loading various cartridges, but watching what he does helps. He's also really good at explaining what he's doing as he's doing it.

It really depends on what your preference is, what you're better at, and what your goals are. I'll typically shoot my limited gun in 9mm if I have a 3 gun match the next day. Otherwise I like shooting my RFPO gun, and RFRO. I'm typically better with a long gun, but I've noticed that when I shoot RFRO and RFPO, I crush my RFRO scores with that rimfire pistol. If you're not better with one over the other, then it might be worth practicing whichever platform you want to improve with. If you want to get better with pistol, shoot a pistol, and vice versa.

For limited, which is the division I almost always shoot, I have a dozen mags. 2011 mags aren't cheap, and I'm not one to blow money, but I have 10 2011 mags for my 9mm limited gun I use in 3 gun, which I also used for USPSA for a while and 10 mags seemed to not be enough. Depending on the range you shoot on, if it just rained, and you did a mag change and the mag dropped into a puddle, or mud, you'd need to take whatever rounds remain out, take off the base pad, wipe down the spring, brush out the mag, reassemble, and then load again. During a match I don't want to deal with brushing out mags so once a mag hits the ground and it's wet or dirty, that mag goes into my range bag and stays there. I shot a sectional earlier this year, and the bays were sand. As soon as a mag hit the ground, that mag wasn't used again for the day. I like spending my time chatting with friends, or watching people shoot. I have a single stack rig, even though I don't really shoot single stack. But when I considered it I shot two matches. I have 15 single stack mags. This gave me the ability to load up my mag pouches on stage one, then have all fresh mags for stage two. Once I shot stage two, I'd start reloading the mags. If I decided to get into single stack more, I'd likely at least double the number of mags I have. Obviously you can get by fine with one mag in addition to what you need to carry on your belt. But having extra is a really nice benefit. Another benefit is having less wear on your springs.

I did this a few years ago shooting 3 gun with a bunch of guys who were really, really good. The stage was very shotgun heavy, with most arrays being 6-8 clays side by side. Their splits on these arrays were crazy, without any misses. For whatever reason, I subconsciously emulated those same splits. The result: I literally missed half the clays lol. It was one of those lessons that I won't forget. Before I shoot a stage, as I'm making ready I tell myself that I need to see my sights before pulling the trigger. It works most of the time, which is all I can ask for lol.

Trash talking is fun when you give it back. In my experience, trash talkers can't handle it when you trash talk in return. I used to play a lot of golf when I was younger, and almost always played for money. Skins, match play, whatever. I played with different people, all who loved playing for money as much as I did. I remember two guys who constantly trash talked while we played. I never let it affect me, tuned it out, and focused solely on my visualization of my shot. At a certain point it became white noise in the background. One day I wasn't in a great mood so I became tired of listening to it, so I decided to trash talk, but subtly. "Oh man, that water looks to be in play if you slice it". I'd say this knowing that the trash talker battled a slice. The trash talker would be on a part of the green that I knew broke the opposite way than it looks, and I'd say "you got lucky, that's a simple left to right break". The ball would break the opposite way lol. Sure enough, the trash talking stopped because these people fold up like a lawn chair when you give it back. They'll spend so much of their mental energy trying to figure out how to get to you, that their own games suffer. There's one guy I know who trash talks. I just ignore him, but if it continues, I have great ways to get inside his head. I managed to let him get into my head on one stage at a recent match, and tried to burn the stage down, and had mikes all over the place. After that stage, I turned on my ability to tune people out, and shot well the rest of the day. Try giving it back. Find something they're self conscious about with their shooting, and point that out to them. You can either give it back, or learn how to tune it out better. Or just don't squad with those people. One of the things that affects my shooting more than trash talkers is people who don't paste and reset. I try to avoid shooting with them as much as possible.

Burnout is definitely a serious issue. I started shooting USPSA and 3 gun about 5 years ago. Each year I didn't get burned out, until this year. The thing that was different this year is that even with Covid cancelling some of the early matches, I've shot matches almost every single day on the weekends since about mid April. I've had maybe a handful of days off on the weekends. When I look back at what was different those first few years compared to this year, there are two things I can see - 1. shooting way too many matches and not having time off except for during the week, while I'm working 60-70 hours a week. When I'm putting in that many hours at work every week, and not having a day off on the weekends, it seems to have led to being burned out. 2. I also shot more indoor matches over the winter last year. While it wasn't every weekend, it was 2-3 times per month. I'm very much looking forward to getting through this weekend and only having 3 more matches for the rest of the year. Earlier this year I shot a sectional about 3.5 hours away. I took Friday off, drove there to walk the stages, and then shot the match the following day. I drove home, and then got my stuff prepared for 3 gun the next day. I woke up the next morning in a piss poor mood, with absolutely no interest in shooting. Combine that with shooting with a slow squad that you constantly had to yell at to paste and reset, I basically shot terrible. In hindsight, I should have just taken the day off. If you wake up in a bad mood, you have to try to change it, otherwise there's no point in shooting. For the most part, all of us are doing this for fun and aren't making a living off of shooting. As soon as it becomes miserable, it's time for a break, otherwise what's the point? I'm personally looking forward to taking the winter off and focusing on getting into shape, dropping weight, and focusing on dry fire. I may throw an indoor match into the mix maybe once a month, but that's it. I love shooting too much for it to become a source of unnecessary stress. This is why I stopped playing golf. I played literally almost every day from the ages of 16-25. I'd show up in a bad mood, and not be able to shake it, but still played well. Once I stopped, I'd play every so often and loved playing again even though I couldn't perform the way I did before I stopped playing. The way I look at things that cause me stress today is if it's causing me stress, it better be paying me money. If I'm not being paid, why am I voluntarily adding stress into my life?

Thanks, I'll definitely check that out.

This year I've shot a few more majors than I have in any of the 5 years I've been shooting USPSA and 3 gun. One very strange thing happens that I can't quite put my finger on as the cause. When I shoot local matches, whether they're USPSA or 3 gun, I generally do well, shoot very free, and execute my plans really well. As soon as I make ready on the first stage of a major, that all flies out the window. What winds up happening is I suddenly start shooting slow. While I'm accurate, I'm just not shooting stages as quickly as I would at a local match. It's not nerves because my heart rate is about the same as it typically is. It just seems like I'm hesitant to shoot at my normal speed, almost like I'm trying to avoid a miss here or there, when I don't have a whole lot of misses at local matches. One of my friends who is a much better shooter than I am asked me a question that may be the answer, but I figured I'd also ask here to see if there are any other idea on what may be my issue. The question he asked me is "when you're shooting a local, are you thinking about where you're going to finish before and during the match"? My answer was no, I just show up and shoot my best and try to push myself. He then asked "are you doing that at majors"? I laughed and said no. One of the things I have a bad habit of doing is taking a look at who is registered at a major in my division, and trying to figure out where I'd likely finish. What ends up happening is that I don't finish where I thought I would. Next year I'm going to try out not looking at the registration page and just showing up and shooting like I would for a local and see if that makes a difference. I'd be interested in hearing from others here who may have an idea about what might be causing this issue, or others who have had this issue and seemed to be able to get over it.

If you're talking about a local match, and are looking at place rather what percentage you finished compared to the winner of your division, the placement is meaningless. For example, let's say you came in 5th in limited. Awesome right? Then you look at what percentage you can in compared to the person who won limited and see that you're 40%. That's the bottom of C class. A lot of people look at their placement versus the more important metric of percentage of the winner. If you went to a sectional or area match, that 5th place would likely turn into a 60th or lower. Don't take my post as criticism, or trolling because it's not. I use percentage of the winner in my division as a way to gauge whether or not I'm improving. If I'm consistently improving, that percentage should keep rising when shooting against the same better shooters. Regarding guns, the gun doesn't make the shooter, but a good shooter with an expensive gun knows how to leverage the gun to shoot better. A new shooter with a 6K limited gun will not shoot much better than if they were shooting a Glock or some other plastic gun. They might improve a little bit, but not that much. There is one local guy who has an expensive 2011, and when he made the switch, his skills or percentage of where he finished in his division didn't change. He just doesn't have the base fundamentals of shooting down. If you ask him to shoot a group at a head box at 25 yards, out of 10 rounds one might be in the head box.

It really depends. When given the choice, I'll squad with friends, and most of my friends are pretty good shooters. If I have to shoot with people I don't know, I'll generally try to choose a squad with shooters who are better than me. I try to avoid signing up to squads where everyone is "unclassified", or there are people known for being lazy and not resetting.

I typically don't count shots while shooting a stage. With that being said, I have caught myself counting when shooting a shotgun in 3 gun. I typically have my load plans in my head to avoid counting, but after factoring in a miss or two, if it winds up being more than a couple misses, I go back to counting how many shells are left in the gun so that I don't run dry. On pistol I haven't found myself counting because I'm typically dropping the mag well before I run out and plan stages that way.

Absolutely. The best part is watching how they break down a stage, and how they actually shoot it. Most are also willing to share their plans with you, and explain why they're going to shoot a stage a certain way. The flip side of this is if you're a good shooter who constantly shoots with shooters who aren't good. I've seen this with a few local shooters who are good, but kind of stalled out at a certain level because they're not shooting with people who will push them to step up their games.

When you need to unscrew the V1 or V2 plate to do maintenance on it, are you suggesting that the screws screwing directly into plastic are just going to be perfectly fine? In my experience with similar plastics, those holes begin to enlarge after a few repetitions. I’ve only run 5300 primers through mine and it seems like I’ll soon need to tear mine down and clean and lubricate everything. When this was new, those last 100 primers fed fine, albeit a bit more slowly than when filled. However at the 3K mark, those last 100 were having trouble fully making it to the ramp. I’m sure that will go away once I clean and lube, but that is the point I’m making about longevity due to the materials used and the manner in which the screws attach the plate to the bowl portion. Those holes will strip.

Another update. Since I received the primer pro, I've run 5300 CCI 500's through it as I was loading ammo. These were all brand new primers, run through a single time. The good: zero flipped primers. The bad: the output onto the ramp has become extraordinarily slow. I haven't cleaned it at all, so I'll do that. I'd say it was about the 1500 primer mark that I began noticing it slow down. I'm going to run CCI small rifle primers through it next, however that's not going to be soon since I have so much 223 brass to prep. I'll probably run somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4K through it of those so I'm hoping that I still don't experience any flipped primers. Verdict: Would I buy this again? The best answer I can give is it all depends. If you have an automated press and are running 2k every session, you'll want to at least wipe down the ramp after the first 1K. This is assuming you're running CCI's and the machine doesn't shoot out any upside down primers. If you're like me, and you do 500 rounds in a session, perhaps 1K on the weekends if you have nothing else to do, then this will meet your needs perfectly. My concerns with this is the longevity of the machine. As many others have pointed out, the plastics used have that "cheap" feel to them, so if I wind up needing to remove the V1 plate to clean/lube, the screw holes are going to strip out eventually. This isn't a matter of if, but when. I also didn't do the sewing needle modification to the ramp. The reason being that I still want to test this out with rifle primers, and if I start getting upside down primers, I want to be able to send this back. The one thing I haven't seen is any indication that if you do modify the ramp and are still not satisfied, will it be taken back and a refund be issued? Now for the constructive criticism: I think the idea was great for this piece of gear, however I think rolling this out to beta testers would have been a better approach. For example, I would have sent out units to people who use every different brand of primer, and for each of those brands of primers, I'd have a machine in people who load like I do, as well as people who are running automated presses. A lot of the kinks would have been worked out prior to releasing to the general public. I know from Saul's replies in this thread that he did a fair amount of testing, but as we've seen it missed taking into account a few different variables. Obviously food for thought for the next product release. Saul, my advice to you, take it or leave it is I would explore the uses of some different plastics, or materials, and after doing internal testing, send them out to people willing to beta test. The idea is fantastic, and the design is great, however the materials don't seem to be up to the task of meeting the demands of the various types of primers on the market, as well as the high volume needs of reloaders with automated presses. I'd try to get the beta models into the hands of people who are going to run primers through the units one time, and in high volumes. Anyhow, hopefully within the next month I'll be ready to load 223 so that I can test mine out a bit more. If it doesn't jam or flip primers, I'll likely keep it and just deal with cleaning it.

Quick update on my primer pro. I've run 2300 primers through mine so far. At around the 1500-1600 mark, I noticed that they began going down the ramp more slowly. At the 1800 primer mark, they began reaching the hammer mechanism and stopped until another primer came down the ramp to push it past the hammer/arm mechanism to be pushed into the pickup tube. I did have a couple of primers kind of get jammed in the disk, but it wasn't so much that they jammed because when I looked at them in the disk, they were sort of canted on an angle and after tapping they went back into the bowl and fed. I haven't had very many issues running the last 100 primers out of the bowl and onto the ramp. It obviously takes a long time, but not very surprising given the lack of primers being knocked around by other primers. The one thing that has surprised me due to the number of reports in this thread, is that I didn't have a single primer reach the ramp upside down. Perhaps my unit was set up properly, with the screws attaching the V1 plate to the bowl being properly tensioned, but zero upside down primers. I think it's getting close to the time where I need to, at the very least, clean up the ramp with some rubbing alcohol. I may pick up some silicone spray and lightly lube the ramp, but aside from that, I'll keep running primers through this thing and continue testing it. For reference, the only primers I'm using are CCI 500's. For one additional data point, the surface I have the primer pro on is perfectly level. I'd recommend that everyone throw a level on the surface of where you have the primer pro situated and make sure it's level front to back and left to right. While I don't know if this would even affect how the primer pro works, it's worth checking.....if nothing else, you're eliminating a single variable. I don't have a whole lot of free time so the most I can do on my 650 is about 500 rounds in a session, and sometimes 1000 rounds on a weekend if I have time and the desire to spend time loading an extra 500 rounds. I did 1K yesterday, and just did 500 today. I think I have another 3K pistol to load, and I'll be switching to 223 so I'll see if there's any change going to small rifle CCI's.

Ran another 500 primers through mine today. I’m up to 800 primers through the unit without any flipped, and it’s running about the same as it was when I took it out of the box. So far so good, but I’ll write more detailed feedback once I get maybe another 1K through it. I’m using CCI 500’s exclusively with the V1 disk. I’ll be curious to see if it makes it to the 2k mark without experiencing the issues many others have shared. Hopefully I’ll have some time on Tuesday evening to get another 500 rounds loaded after work. I really want this thing to work. So far it has but I’m still pretty far from the number others have experienced problems starting.

Got around to setting up and testing it last night. My initial plan was to run the same 500 CCI’s through it to see how long it would take to mess up. Rather than doing that, since I already had five tubes filled, I just loaded those rounds, then dumped 300 CCI 500’s into it since I had about 300 rounds left to load. All ran fine. I have a bunch of loading to do over the next few weeks so I’ll see how it goes. I’d rather test it how I load versus running 2-3K at one time since I never load that many in one session. I’m hoping to run another 500 rounds this evening. I’ll report back at the 1500 round mark since that seems to be the count where most who have issues are seeing the problems arise. I can see the frustration of folks with automated presses since they’re doing 1K+ every session, and needing to take this thing apart to clean it every 1-1.5K would be frustrating. Anyhow, I’ll report back in a few days.

Just received mine today. I don’t have time to test it out right now, but will after I finish with work. I did remove it from the box and took a look at everything. Looks nice. I mean if I’m going to be honest here, it’s plastic so taking that into consideration, it’s nice for something made of plastic. I’ll be running CCI 500’s through it so my plan is to test them and see how it works. An earlier post described using silicon lubricant on the ramp so if I start having issues with the ramp I’ll go out and buy some. I’ll report back this evening.

It’s hard to say. I haven’t experimented with FMJ’s, only the Xtreme 147 RN. That’s basically the only bullet I’ve used for the last four years.

You make a great point at the very beginning, and I'll take it once step further. I agree about the restrictive states...that kind of stuff would make 3 gun extremely challenging to say the least. I started shooting 3 gun 4 years ago. I remember seeing before even being interested in, or shooting competitively, the 3GN events. I don't recall if they were on TV, or if I just saw them on youtube or somewhere else, but it was interesting to see a sport that I'd never heard of before. This was during the BHO era. Gun owners were freaking out, hoarding ammo, powder, primers, etc. You could barely find ammo if at all. I started shooting 3 gun in early spring of 2016. Every local match sold out within minutes. About two years ago, I noticed that they didn't sell out quite as quickly. While I won't say this is for sure why there are fewer people shooting 3 gun, but I do believe it has had a pretty big effect on the sport, but once Trump won the presidency, gun owners began breathing a sigh of relief. With that I'm sure people lost as much interest in 3 gun, and likely shooting in general. I remember reading a study a while back about hobbies. It showed that more than half of people who take up a hobby, wind up not continuing after a couple of years. I remember seeing people who were literally at every single match for two years. Did their wives get sick of them not being home one day every week? I think costs are definitely a factor, but if you've already invested in the guns and the gear, your only expenses are ammo, gas, match fees, and maybe gatoraid. Looking at factory prices, what does an average match cost for 3 gun.....100 pistol, 100 rifle, 100 shotgun. You figure two boxes of pistol ammo will run someone what, $25? If you buy 223, what does hoser 55 grain run for 20 rounds, $7-8? So $35-40. Shotgun minus slugs would be $30. So that's around $100 in ammo if you don't reload. Add in match fees, gas, and you're somewhere between $150-200. I'm estimating on the high side, but I suspect it's close. That's not an insignificant amount of money. Reloaders can knock off a bit on the 223, and maybe half on pistol, but shotgun costs are shotgun costs as no one seems to reload shotgun ammo for 3 gun. Let's say if you reload you're down to $100 every match. That's still not an insignificant amount of money. I think when people feel that their 2A rights are in jeopardy at the federal level, for an extended period of time, they are more gung ho and will overlook many of these costs. Now that we're in a period where there's a perception of safety for 2A outside of the states attacking it, people aren't overlooking costs any longer. 3 gun is also difficult. I think someone above outlined the difficulties already, but you have to at least be somewhat competent with 3 different platforms, and be able to perform with all of them on demand. A lot of people likely get discouraged because they're not good at one or more of the platforms, and aren't seeing a return on investment in the results after the match. Others have also already talked about the lack of uniformity in the rule sets. I think this is probably also a factor to a certain extent. I know from my perspective, I really don't care what rules you're using, as long as I understand what they are. Difficulty was also brought up regarding how some match directors create stages, but I've been shooting challenging stage designs since my first year, and they didn't discourage me, they actually encouraged me to get better at shooting them. So if there is a loss of people in the sport, I suspect it has a little bit to do with everything above. I will say this though....had Hillary won, I would bet that people would still be out there in droves shooting because I do think the political climate has a lot to do with how "enthusiastic" people are about competing and shooting in general.

I think we're mostly in agreement, and I agree that at least in the beginning, it would be a feel good division. To grow the sport, we really need to attract people who look at 3 gun and say "meh, it's not practical" or "that will get you kilt in da streets" lol. How do we get that demographic into the sport? They seem to spend money like it's going out of style, but they also aren't going to spend money on guns/gear that isn't "tactical". I'm actually surprised that the tac Timmys don't want to shoot 3 gun because it is great practice. You're practicing accuracy at speed with movement, combined with firearms manipulations. I guess the question is how do you get the Timmys involved in 3 gun using gear they already own? You can technically shoot limited and just use a pump, or out of the box semi that they already have, but you can't use a dot on your pistol, and it seems that most of them have gone in that direction. They're going to get crushed in open which is the only choice if they believe that the dot on the pistol is the only way. I don't run matches so I have no idea how to get something like this to even work, especially since I'd never even shoot in that division lol. Just trying to figure out how to get those guys involved in 3 gun.

Most are running a dot on their pistols so open is the only choice for them, and unless they’re planning on running a mag fed shotgun they won’t be competitive. I think part of the reason some whose gear fits into limited don’t come back is because they suck at shooting a pistol, and quadloading is something that outside of John Wick, the timmys don’t really do. I know me personally, when I started in 3 gun 4 years ago, I could have been considered a Timmy and the first match I shot highlighted how much I overestimated my pistol shooting skills. I suspect that this is what causes a Timmy to not come back, at least before dots became more prevalent on pistols. Not to get too much into psychology, but it seems like timmys are the type to have extremely fragile egos, so if they get stuck in open and finish in the bottom 20%, it’ll disincentivize them from ever returning. Just look at USPSA. Their two newest divisions largely cater to the Timmy crowd, and they’ve grown tremendously over the past two years. They also gave people who have sucked at shooting pistols the ability to have a dot, or give pistol up completely and shoot a rifle.