Reporting PCC results separately

[GJM]

I am starting to believe that reporting PCC results out as a separate USPSA match may be the best long term approach for allowing PCC and the other USPSA pistol divisions to coexist.

 

i shot PCC back in 2017 when it first started, really enjoyed it and learned a lot. It was a time when CO was ten rounds, and PCC helped me see faster, move faster, and learn a different approach to the game than Production. I stopped when I was that “proverbial” one classifier from GM, as I didn’t want a PCC classification to affect my pistol classifications. 

 

Fast forward a few years, and PCC has been around long enough that you can see how it is impacting our sport. For some shooters, besides the seeing and moving faster part, a large appeal is that PCC allows them to finish higher overall in local matches. I get that at major matches, high overall is irrelevant, but at local matches there isn’t enough competition in each division, so most are duking it out for high overall or as high as you can be in overall match. 

 

This is where the problem starts. Shooters that ordinarily would shoot a pistol, get pulled into PCC to finish higher, and stage designers can create stages that help or penalize PCC as a way of increasing or reducing the gap between PCC and pistol. This sets up conflict over stage design. But, the bigger problem for the long term health of our sport, is that many shooters are losing their pistol skills. Then when they try to start shooting a pistol again, they do so horribly they run back to their PCC. It is almost like them having to go through withdrawal from a drug addiction. 

 

Now, if we reported PCC as a completely separate match, it would take away conflicts over PCC friendly/unfriendly stages, and eliminate the incentive of higher overall placement which causes our members to abandon the core of our sport —  which is pistol skills. Long term, this seems like a way of allowing PCC to coexist with the other divisions, and preserve the core of our sport, which is shooting pistols. 

[Rnlinebacker]

I am starting to believe that reporting PCC results out as a separate USPSA match may be the best long term approach for allowing PCC and the other USPSA pistol divisions to coexist.
 
i shot PCC back in 2017 when it first started, really enjoyed it and learned a lot. It was a time when CO was ten rounds, and PCC helped me see faster, move faster, and learn a different approach to the game than Production. I stopped when I was that “proverbial” one classifier from GM, as I didn’t want a PCC classification to affect my pistol classifications. 
 
Fast forward a few years, and PCC has been around long enough that you can see how it is impacting our sport. For some shooters, besides the seeing and moving faster part, a large appeal is that PCC allows them to finish higher overall in local matches. I get that at major matches, high overall is irrelevant, but at local matches there isn’t enough competition in each division, so most are duking it out for high overall or as high as you can be in overall match. 
 
This is where the problem starts. Shooters that ordinarily would shoot a pistol, get pulled into PCC to finish higher, and stage designers can create stages that help or penalize PCC as a way of increasing or reducing the gap between PCC and pistol. This sets up conflict over stage design. But, the bigger problem for the long term health of our sport, is that many shooters are losing their pistol skills. Then when they try to start shooting a pistol again, they do so horribly they run back to their PCC. It is almost like them having to go through withdrawal from a drug addiction. 
 
Now, if we reported PCC as a completely separate match, it would take away conflicts over PCC friendly/unfriendly stages, and eliminate the incentive of higher overall placement which causes our members to abandon the core of our sport —  which is pistol skills. Long term, this seems like a way of allowing PCC to coexist with the other divisions, and preserve the core of our sport, which is shooting pistols. 

Why are we snow flaking against PCC? Who cares if they suck at pistol later. Let them coexist and play the game. USPSA is a privilege not a right. People can participate or not. Our sport definitely needs some tightening up but not in this arena [emoji2955]

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[davsco]

just seems like extra work.  we can always just look at results for our specific division.  or look at the overall, and scroll down to the first non-pcc shooter (if a pcc shooter is on top) and compare against that.

[MemphisMechanic]

Won’t change anything. The first thing these guys would do? Pull both match results up on practisore and see who won the whole thing. Just like before.

[BritinUSA]

The PractiScore App allows competitors to choose which divisions they want to see in the combined results. 

[Maximis228]

They already are broken out in the match results. Just select PCC under division and there you go... only PCC shooters.

 

PCC shooters still get stomped in our area. We have some GMs but it doesn't matter. They still tend to be slightly slower and minor coring hurts compared to Open.

 

Per your logic, how is it ok to have Open and Revolver in the same results? Thats gotta hurt some feels.

[B_RAD]

PCC dudes bragging about winning HOA at a club match is lame!  Just like if an open shooter does it. 

 

"Congratulations,.... You're using gear that is a huge advantage. You should beat shooters using less advantageous gear"!

 

I shoot open BTW. 

[jhgtyre]

6 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

PCC dudes bragging about winning HOA at a club match is lame!  Just like if an open shooter does it. 

 

"Congratulations,.... You're using gear that is a huge advantage. You should beat shooters using less advantageous gear"!

 

I shoot open BTW. 

^^^THIS^^^

 

I think HOA should only be published if the winner is shooting in a capacity restricted division.

[Sarge]

Bad idea because I won’t be able to tell a PCC guy, “congratulations, you won a pistol match with a rifle”.

[NickG013]

7 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

PCC dudes bragging about winning HOA at a club match is lame!  Just like if an open shooter does it. 

 

"Congratulations,.... You're using gear that is a huge advantage. You should beat shooters using less advantageous gear"!

 

I shoot open BTW. 

Around here, we design stages that are a disadvantage to PCC. So we throw in a lot of tight leans and close targets on the inside edges of ports. Now we really only have guys that want to shoot it "just for fun". In other words, they're not very competitive with it. 

[B_RAD]

13 minutes ago, NickG013 said:

Around here, we design stages that are a disadvantage to PCC. So we throw in a lot of tight leans and close targets on the inside edges of ports. Now we really only have guys that want to shoot it "just for fun". In other words, they're not very competitive with it. 

I get the thought process behind this but now your changing what the match would normally be to something that screws over PCC. So, that does affect everyone else.

 

To me, a normal USPSA match is not the same as a USPSA match that's set up to put PCC at a disadvantage. 

 

Who cares if they finish HOA in the combined, unsorted results?!

 

Before PCC, did you design stages to put open shooters at a disadvantage?  Probably not. 

 

 

[NickG013]

3 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I get the thought process behind this but now your changing what the match would normally be to something that screws over PCC. So, that does affect everyone else.

 

To me, a normal USPSA match is not the same as a USPSA match that's set up to put PCC at a disadvantage. 

 

Who cares if they finish HOA in the combined, unsorted results?!

 

Before PCC, did you design stages to put open shooters at a disadvantage?  Probably not. 

 

 

TBH we do it to have fun. So if I want to mess with a friend of mine who is a lefty, I'll design a tight lean that is easier for righties just to mess with him. That's all in good fun. He will turn around and do the same to me. There are certain people who shoot PCC just to win HOA. If you do a couple matches where you're designing stages that give them a disadvantage, you'll find they only shoot a couple matches of PCC before they go back to their normal division.

[GJM]

Just to be clear, I like PCC. I still shoot it as one of my two divisions in Steel Challenge, and I have a bunch of friends who are PCC. 

 

What I am interested in discussing, is how PCC interacts with the rest of our sport, and what incentives we may be providing to shoot PCC over pistol divisions, by how we present the results. I believe that shooting pistols is the core of USPSA, but others may disagree. I don’t believe that USPSA is intentionally encouraging people to pick PCC over the pistol divisions, but that may be an unintended consequence of how we now show results. 

 

 

[HoMiE]

1 hour ago, GJM said:

Long term, this seems like a way of allowing PCC to coexist with the other divisions, and preserve the core of our sport, which is shooting pistols. 

It’s US Practical  Shooting Association not Pistol Shooting Association. I don’t agree with the yeah you won bringing a rifle to a pistol match hyperbole. If you shoot and move slow with a pistol, bringing a pcc to a match isn’t going to bring you GM status and hOA. And the hey lets make hard leans to slow the pcc shooters down doesn’t do anything but separate the fast shooters from the slower ones. 

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, HoMiE said:

It’s US Practical  Shooting Association not Pistol Shooting Association. I don’t agree with the yeah you won bringing a rifle to a pistol match hyperbole. If you shoot and move slow with a pistol, bringing a pcc to a match isn’t going to bring you GM status and hOA. And the hey lets make hard leans to slow the pcc shooters down doesn’t do anything but separate the fast shooters from the slower ones. 

Like I said, we all know it is Practical shooting. BUT from day one until just a few years ago it was indeed intended to be a pistol game. 

[HoMiE]

7 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Like I said, we all know it is Practical shooting. BUT from day one until just a few years ago it was indeed intended to be a pistol game. 

I guess I don’t agree with the OP opening statement of  pisto L is the core    Of the sport   Even Cooper renamed American Pisto l Institute to Gunsite Academy. I like that the sporthas grown to be more inclusive. We have enough people who don’t want you have a gun so all the infighting does no good. I want to be able to shoot a pistol match, Multigun or steel. I’ll go shoot idpa when they shoot indoors during winter. I play this game to become proficient with all platforms, I don’t want to be a one trick pony. 

[rishii]

2 hours ago, NickG013 said:

Around here, we design stages that are a disadvantage to PCC. So we throw in a lot of tight leans and close targets on the inside edges of ports. Now we really only have guys that want to shoot it "just for fun". In other words, they're not very competitive with it. 

If a MD at my club did that, the next match I MD the start position for pcc would simply say muzzle down range and have a bunch of plates and hard cover and no shoots at 20yd

as shrek said “can’t we all just get along”

[RJH]

That is one of the funniest post ever. Like if you look at the  overalls you can't unsee that a  pcc beat  you and it is going to ruin your life.  The pcc may be one of the  most practical guns being used and certainly fits in that parameter of USPSA more than open guns and revolvers haha. 

 

PS i don't shoot much pcc, mainly limited, but i don't cry if a pcc or open gun beats me, but maybe a little if i get beat by a ss or production gun, and i will be inconsolable if i get beat by a revolver hahaha

[gerritm]

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

That is one of the funniest post ever. Like if you look at the  overalls you can't unsee that a  pcc beat  you and it is going to ruin your life.  The pcc may be one of the  most practical guns being used and certainly fits in that parameter of USPSA more than open guns and revolvers haha. 

 

PS i don't shoot much pcc, mainly limited, but i don't cry if a pcc or open gun beats me, but maybe a little if i get beat by a ss or production gun, and i will be inconsolable if i get beat by a revolver hahaha

This. Shooting is the core that brings us together.

 

I do shoot PCC and pretty much have since it was approved. I also shoot 2x4 UML 3-gun. This is a solution to a non problem. Need to get over the rifle in a pistol match. Locally there was some animosity at first, probably the same when open became popular. We all get beat by someone. There are some terrific production, Carry Optic, & limited shooters that smoke the PCC & open guys on occasion depending on the match and stages. Some are more PCC friendly & some pistol. Lets just get along, it is a game. Have fun run what ya brung especially at Level 1 matches.

 

gerritm

Edited January 22, 2019 by gerritm

[HCH]

Quit whining and get to shooting. If someone wants to let their pistol skills diminish because they’re shooting PCC to be HOA at their club match, that’s their problem. It’s not up to me, you, and NROI to protect them from themselves. 

[Southpaw]

4 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

The PractiScore App allows competitors to choose which divisions they want to see in the combined results. 

 

How do you use the app to view past match results? Maybe I'm just stupid, but it seems like the app only works if connected to range WiFi and can sync up live? 

[ChuckS]

10 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

How do you use the app to view past match results? Maybe I'm just stupid, but it seems like the app only works if connected to range WiFi and can sync up live? 

Perhaps he means the Practiscore Competitor App?

[BritinUSA]

24 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Perhaps he means the Practiscore Competitor App?

 

That would be correct.

[Southpaw]

Oh ok. I don't have that app.

[MHicks]

What I've started seeing is a lot of new shooters, many younger ones, who only shoot pcc and have never shot handgun at a USPSA match. Then they would be faced with the probability in the future if they tried shooting a pistol to have to start as an A or B or higher classification.