Reporting PCC results separately

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, NickG013 said:

There are certain people who shoot PCC just to win HOA.

 

But  HOA isn't even a thing.... I find that just laughing at people like that is all the correction that is needed.

 

I have a bunch of friends who shoot pcc, but none of them ever brag about winning HOA..... Of course we have some good pistol shooters at our club, so it is pretty unusual for a rifle guy to win HOA anyway.... I think... I never look at HOA.

[motosapiens]

58 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I am serious,  practical shooting is what the sport was based in. A pcc is a very practical gun. It also pisses off open shooters since they are not a shoe in for hoa anymore, and that is funny and  makes me laugh

 

But HOA isn't even a thing.... If you shoot open and you finish less than 10% ahead of the first iron sight shooter, you lost anyway, and you suck, and should feel very bad about yourself.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

But HOA isn't even a thing.... If you shoot open and you finish less than 10% ahead of the first iron sight shooter, you lost anyway, and you suck, and should feel very bad about yourself.

 

Sure it is, how am i going to know how awesome i am by beating the revolver guy with my limited gun if we don't have hoa and such. Don't steal my glory!!!!

[StealthyBlagga]

Coming back to the original question, I am a HUGE fan of PCC and I think that running a separate match makes a lot of sense. Not because some Open pistol shooter might get his panties in a wad about HOA, but because pistol stages do not really challenge a PCC shooter like they should. I have run several PCC-only matches that included multiple intermediate range (50-150 yard) targets which, while being totally legitimate targets for this type of weapon, put a lot of folks on the back foot. Such targets would obviously be unreasonable in a pistol match.

 

We have a local match where they run TWO separate matches concurrently over the same stages. One match is a traditional USPSA pistol match with its own squads, and the other match is a rifle match with its own squads. By simply taking close-range steel out of play and adding a few longer targets designated as rifle-only, both matches coexist just fine.

[HoMiE]

With the PractiScore competitor app, when you run the what-if scenario, we are all winners. 

[GrumpyOne]

37 minutes ago, Sarge said:

  In 5 years there will probably be a shotgun division anyway so it’s too late to fix anything now.

  

Sarge, you weren't supposed to tell everyone that just yet. Remember, you were sworn to secrecy.

[BritinUSA]

21 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

...but because pistol stages do not really challenge a PCC shooter like they should. I have run several PCC-only matches that included multiple intermediate range (50-150 yard) targets which, while being totally legitimate targets for this type of weapon, put a lot of folks on the back foot. Such targets would obviously be unreasonable in a pistol match.

 

This is the main issue for me... I don’t think it’s possible to design stages that test the accuracy potential of a rifle/PCC without pushing the limitations of what can be done with out-of-the-box handguns such as are used in some of the other divisions. Long range partial targets are not what handguns were designed for, and making the more difficult of those shots becomes more a case of luck than ability. Turning a sport of skill into nothing more than a game of chance.

 

PCC only matches happen in Colorado too and they seem to be very popular. MD’s that run State, Area or National championships are going to have issues designing stages that test the accuracy potential of such diverse divisions as PCC and Production.

[HCH]

4 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

This is the main issue for me... I don’t think it’s possible to design stages that test the accuracy potential of a rifle/PCC without pushing the limitations of what can be done with out-of-the-box handguns such as are used in some of the other divisions. Long range partial targets are not what handguns were designed for, and making the more difficult of those shots becomes more a case of luck than ability. Turning a sport of skill into nothing more than a game of chance.

 

PCC only matches happen in Colorado too and they seem to be very popular. MD’s that run State, Area or National championships are going to have issues designing stages that test the accuracy potential of such diverse divisions as PCC and Production.

 

Lucas Oil has a pretty good turnout from what I’ve seen. 

 

I could get behind a more PCC-directed match, as I don’t feel as challenged or excited about shooting  PCC as I do shooting pistols,but I wouldn’t want USPSA to be the one doing it. USPSA has too many irons in the fire as it is, without adding a whole new match system/rule set. 

 

I really don’t think PCC will cause nearly as much heartburn in a couple of years as it is now—and I don’t think USPSA is going to drastically alter their stage criteria to cater to the division. 

 

[IVC]

8 hours ago, Sarge said:

    In 5 years there will probably be a shotgun division anyway so it’s too late to fix anything now.

 

Slugs or shot, I don't want to be the one taping those targets...

 

...or scoring them:

  - 5 Alpha, 2 Charlies

  - 7 Alpha

  - Hey, where is the head of this target?

Edited January 23, 2019 by IVC

[Patrick Scott]

On 1/22/2019 at 9:16 AM, GJM said:

I am starting to believe that reporting PCC results out as a separate USPSA match may be the best long term approach for allowing PCC and the other USPSA pistol divisions to coexist.

 

i shot PCC back in 2017 when it first started, really enjoyed it and learned a lot. It was a time when CO was ten rounds, and PCC helped me see faster, move faster, and learn a different approach to the game than Production. I stopped when I was that “proverbial” one classifier from GM, as I didn’t want a PCC classification to affect my pistol classifications. 

 

Fast forward a few years, and PCC has been around long enough that you can see how it is impacting our sport. For some shooters, besides the seeing and moving faster part, a large appeal is that PCC allows them to finish higher overall in local matches. I get that at major matches, high overall is irrelevant, but at local matches there isn’t enough competition in each division, so most are duking it out for high overall or as high as you can be in overall match. 

 

This is where the problem starts. Shooters that ordinarily would shoot a pistol, get pulled into PCC to finish higher, and stage designers can create stages that help or penalize PCC as a way of increasing or reducing the gap between PCC and pistol. This sets up conflict over stage design. But, the bigger problem for the long term health of our sport, is that many shooters are losing their pistol skills. Then when they try to start shooting a pistol again, they do so horribly they run back to their PCC. It is almost like them having to go through withdrawal from a drug addiction. 

 

Now, if we reported PCC as a completely separate match, it would take away conflicts over PCC friendly/unfriendly stages, and eliminate the incentive of higher overall placement which causes our members to abandon the core of our sport —  which is pistol skills. Long term, this seems like a way of allowing PCC to coexist with the other divisions, and preserve the core of our sport, which is shooting pistols. 

Maybe you do not realize that "we", USPSA does NOT combine results and in fact separates them. Its a third party application that does this(Practiscore). There is nothing official about that applications combined results.  If PS did not exist and we were only given the official results what would you be doing about the lack of competition in each division at locals? Do you think if PS did not exsist there would be a huge abandonment of the PCC division? 

[bret]

On 1/22/2019 at 11:03 AM, HoMiE said:

It’s US Practical  Shooting Association not Pistol Shooting Association. I don’t agree with the yeah you won bringing a rifle to a pistol match hyperbole. If you shoot and move slow with a pistol, bringing a pcc to a match isn’t going to bring you GM status and hOA. And the hey lets make hard leans to slow the pcc shooters down doesn’t do anything but separate the fast shooters from the slower ones. 

Up until the beginning of this year, what did the front of the rule book say?

 

It said Handgun.

 

nothing practical about a pee see see.

 

hard leans were never an issue until the pee see see guys started crying about it.

 

it's fun to beat pee see see shooters with a limited gun, guys shooting a rifle in a pistol match should always win.

[RJH]

30 minutes ago, bret said:

Up until the beginning of this year, what did the front of the rule book say?

 

It said Handgun.

 

nothing practical about a pee see see.

 

hard leans were never an issue until the pee see see guys started crying about it.

 

it's fun to beat pee see see shooters with a limited gun, guys shooting a rifle in a pistol match should always win.

How is there nothing practical about a pcc? I would figure it is much more practical than an open blaster and a revolver. Also how is shooting rifles against pistols any different than shooting open guns against other pistol types, both have an advantage, that is why there are divisions ? One last thing,  why do your panties get bunched over pccs? 

[bret]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

How is there nothing practical about a pcc? I would figure it is much more practical than an open blaster and a revolver. Also how is shooting rifles against pistols any different than shooting open guns against other pistol types, both have an advantage, that is why there are divisions ? One last thing,  why do your panties get bunched over pccs? 

A pistol is a pistol,  a rifle is a rifle, even if you are shooting an open gun, it is more practical than a rifle.

 

Look at the start of USPSA, it wasn't about rifles, it was pistols, including revolvers. 

 

My panties aren't in a bunch over pcc I shoot it some but since I have a penis, I prefer to shoot a pistol in a pistol match.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

One last thing,  why do your panties get bunched over pccs? 

 

I think a lot of that came from hq. Basically the rules started with "here it is you folks figure it out" , and also the rank and file was never given a chance to vote yea or nay on this major change to the sport.

Hopefully we will get to 'don't worry be happy' across the spectrum.

[Sarge]

Just now, bret said:

 

My panties aren't in a bunch over pcc I shoot it some but since I have a penis, I prefer to shoot a pistol in a pistol match.

[Patrick Scott]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

My panties aren't in a bunch over pcc I shoot it some but since I have a penis, I prefer to shoot a pistol in a pistol match.

 

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

With statements like that, makes me thik PCC isnt the problem here

Edited January 23, 2019 by Patrick Scott

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, bret said:

A pistol is a pistol,  a rifle is a rifle, even if you are shooting an open gun, it is more practical than a rifle.

 

Look at the start of USPSA, it wasn't about rifles, it was pistols, including revolvers. 

 

My panties aren't in a bunch over pcc I shoot it some but since I have a penis, I prefer to shoot a pistol in a pistol match.

 

1 look up definition of practical,  then tell me if a revolver is more practical than a pcc

 

2 Uspsa also was not about open guns in the beginning either, look up the thread about  principals, but things change so now we have pcc too

 

3 lots of whining for someone with  a penis, you might take a peak and make sure nothing changed there either

 

4 I agree about shooting pcc, it is kinda lame, but going out of ones way to try to screw a particular division is lamer.  I wonder if in the early days of comped guns if match directors put a barrel to shoot through on every stage. They probably did

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

 

With statements like that, makes me thik PCC isnt the problem here

I couldn’t make a statement because I was laughing so hard. Still laughing too!

[bret]

18 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

1 look up definition of practical,  then tell me if a revolver is more practical than a pcc

 

2 Uspsa also was not about open guns in the beginning either, look up the thread about  principals, but things change so now we have pcc too

 

3 lots of whining for someone with  a penis, you might take a peak and make sure nothing changed there either

 

4 I agree about shooting pcc, it is kinda lame, but going out of ones way to try to screw a particular division is lamer.  I wonder if in the early days of comped guns if match directors put a barrel to shoot through on every stage. They probably did

You seem to be pretty butthurt, I suggest Preperation H.

[MHicks]

I think pcc rifles are great and a lot of fun to shoot. I have no desire to shoot one in a regular USPSA match. I would be much more interested in shooting one in pcc only matches. I also believe that both handgun only and ppc only seperate matches would be better then combined with somewhat different challenges in each.

There are a lot of shooters who shoot pcc that would already be shooting the match in years past with a handgun, but now we're getting shooters who will likely never shoot a handgun division, because they can shoot a rifle at pistol difficulty level targets better, duh, making for longer matches.

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, bret said:

You seem to be pretty butthurt, I suggest Preperation H.

Speaking from experience? 

 

Can you show us on the doll where the bad man with the pcc touched you?

[pskys2]

18 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Sure it is, how am i going to know how awesome i am by beating the revolver guy with my limited gun if we don't have hoa and such. Don't steal my glory!!!!

And how humiliating to be beat by a Revolver guy in a COF?!  Or match if someone like JM or TGO is there. 

[pskys2]

12 minutes ago, MHicks said:

I think pcc rifles are great and a lot of fun to shoot. I have no desire to shoot one in a regular USPSA match. I would be much more interested in shooting one in pcc only matches. I also believe that both handgun only and ppc only seperate matches would be better then combined with somewhat different challenges in each.

There are a lot of shooters who shoot pcc that would already be shooting the match in years past with a handgun, but now we're getting shooters who will likely never shoot a handgun division, because they can shoot a rifle at pistol difficulty level targets better, duh, making for longer matches.

Does seem the PCC only matches are starting to get more popular.

[Patrick Scott]

 *SMH, why does it always seem to come up.  Yes, its easier in a lot, if not most cases to place shots on target during a USPSA match with a rifle than it is a pistol. That does not equate to competing with a rifle being easier. Its all relative to the competition, in that division, on that day.  Would I as a A class PCC shooter have an easier time competing against Max Leograndis(Nats champ) than any A class Open shooter would have against Max Michel or Eric G?  All of the talk of its boring/lame/easier is so short sighted it makes my head spin. 

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

And how humiliating to be beat by a Revolver guy in a COF?!  Or match if someone like JM or TGO is there. 

I know  right a long time ago I was at a match that Jerry shot, he was shooting a 625 and i  was shooting a 1911 in L10 and i kicked his ass, on one stage, haha, the other ten or so he  beat me.  I think I would do a little better now, but probably not. Maybe i could get him on two, but I doubt it