Reporting PCC results separately

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

those are pistol matches. I would never choose to shoot a rifle at a pistol match. Doesn't bother me if others do tho. I usually squad with several pcc shooters because their extended make ready and ULSC routines, and frequent stoppages mean most of the match is torn down before we finish our last stage, so there's way less work to do.

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

those are pistol matches. I would never choose to shoot a rifle at a pistol match. Doesn't bother me if others do tho. I usually squad with several pcc shooters because their extended make ready and ULSC routines, and frequent stoppages mean most of the match is torn down before we finish our last stage, so there's way less work to do.

According to uspsa they are not just pistol matches anymore haha 

 

And where do y'all find all these people who cant load and unload  a pcc? The people who shoot it here take maybe ten seconds longer on load and unload. Way less time than the c class open shooter that has to imagine the stage six times at MR and then screws it up anyway.    Maybe our pcc shooters are smarter than pcc shooters around the rest of the country?  

Edited January 24, 2019 by RJH

[Acer2428]

I was just going to say, as a guy who came from production, quit, and came back as a PCC shooter, here's how I see it:

 

- My make ready is plenty fast. Even faster if RO holds my flag. Hah. Yes, there are exceptions with guys running 60 rounds in a 60 rd. stick who can't insert on a closed bolt, etc.

- My make ready is similar in time when I used my SP-01 and had to manually decock, holster, dry grip, raise hands above head, etc.

- My UNLSC is slower. Agreed. That said, I think the practice of hammer down and then inserting a chamber flag is a bit cumbersome.

- MR/UNLSC is still overall on pace w/ most and much faster than the newbies and old-fart open shooters who are unlocking holsters, making sure their gun isn't going to fall off, etc.

- Yes, stoppages happen in PCC. They're new and guys are getting into it with cheap/frankrn-guns. Guess what, it happens w/ Open guns pushing the limits almost as frequently around here.

 

My OVERALL time is faster than most people at the smaller matches... you know, it's a carbine and all that. Most PCC shooters who get ready slowly... were/would be the same guys to go slowly with a pistol. I would bet if you timed it, the average differential is a few seconds per stage, some of which is likely made up in the COF.... people just want a reason to hate.

 

-IDGAF about course design. I got into PCC as a way to train/practice my rifle skills, not as a way to beat pistol shooters. 

- People complain about stages changing due to PCC's.... and then change/design stages to try to 'screw over' PCC's.... How does the irony not smack people in the face?

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Acer2428 said:

I was just going to say, as a guy who came from production, quit, and came back as a PCC shooter, here's how I see it:

 

- My make ready is plenty fast. Even faster if RO holds my flag. Hah. Yes, there are exceptions with guys running 60 rounds in a 60 rd. stick who can't insert on a closed bolt, etc.

- My make ready is similar in time when I used my SP-01 and had to manually decock, holster, dry grip, raise hands above head, etc.

- My UNLSC is slower. Agreed. That said, I think the practice of hammer down and then inserting a chamber flag is a bit cumbersome.

- MR/UNLSC is still overall on pace w/ most and much faster than the newbies and old-fart open shooters who are unlocking holsters, making sure their gun isn't going to fall off, etc.

- Yes, stoppages happen in PCC. They're new and guys are getting into it with cheap/frankrn-guns. Guess what, it happens w/ Open guns pushing the limits almost as frequently around here.

 

My OVERALL time is faster than most people at the smaller matches... you know, it's a carbine and all that. Most PCC shooters who get ready slowly... were/would be the same guys to go slowly with a pistol. I would bet if you timed it, the average differential is a few seconds per stage, some of which is likely made up in the COF.... people just want a reason to hate.

 

-IDGAF about course design. I got into PCC as a way to train/practice my rifle skills, not as a way to beat pistol shooters. 

- People complain about stages changing due to PCC's.... and then change/design stages to try to 'screw over' PCC's.... How does the irony not smack people in the face?

 

For the win right here 

[HCH]

My only complaint with PCC is that my 94 Winchester  44 mag isn’t legal. It’s a pistol caliber. 

 

Oops, my bad. It’s a revolver caliber. 

[motosapiens]

56 minutes ago, Acer2428 said:

My OVERALL time is faster than most people at the smaller matches... you know, it's a carbine and all that. Most PCC shooters who get ready slowly... were/would be the same guys to go slowly with a pistol. I would bet if you timed it, the average differential is a few seconds per stage, some of which is likely made up in the COF.... people just want a reason to hate.

 

 

I don't want a reason to hate. I like shooting with pcc guys, and I own a pcc and shoot it occasionally. But in my experience pcc shooters take significantly longer to make ready and to ULSC. like 30-60 seconds per shooter/stage. I've seen this working at big matches too. So if you want to do the least amount of teardown, squad with a bunch of pcc shooters, and make sure you finish on a classifier or standards stage with 3 targets and a box. Very relaxing....

[Acer2428]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I don't want a reason to hate. I like shooting with pcc guys, and I own a pcc and shoot it occasionally. But in my experience pcc shooters take significantly longer to make ready and to ULSC. like 30-60 seconds per shooter/stage. I've seen this working at big matches too. So if you want to do the least amount of teardown, squad with a bunch of pcc shooters, and make sure you finish on a classifier or standards stage with 3 targets and a box. Very relaxing....

 

I get what you're saying, but I think your perception of time is off or the guys you shoot with are ancient. Most stages are what, 20-30 seconds? So you're telling me the differential in MR/UNLSC is 3x LONGER than a pistol shooter is able to shoot the entire stage? That's not 60 seconds total, that's 60 seconds LONGER than an average pistol shooter. 

 

 

 

[IVC]

2 hours ago, HCH said:

My only complaint with PCC is that my 94 Winchester  44 mag isn’t legal. It’s a pistol caliber. 

 

Oops, my bad. It’s a revolver caliber. 

 

Desert Eagle comes in 44 Mag so it's a Pistol Caliber...

[Darqusoull13]

On 1/22/2019 at 8:16 AM, GJM said:

I am starting to believe that reporting PCC results out as a separate USPSA match may be the best long term approach for allowing PCC and the other USPSA pistol divisions to coexist.

 

i shot PCC back in 2017 when it first started, really enjoyed it and learned a lot. It was a time when CO was ten rounds, and PCC helped me see faster, move faster, and learn a different approach to the game than Production. I stopped when I was that “proverbial” one classifier from GM, as I didn’t want a PCC classification to affect my pistol classifications. 

 

Fast forward a few years, and PCC has been around long enough that you can see how it is impacting our sport. For some shooters, besides the seeing and moving faster part, a large appeal is that PCC allows them to finish higher overall in local matches. I get that at major matches, high overall is irrelevant, but at local matches there isn’t enough competition in each division, so most are duking it out for high overall or as high as you can be in overall match. 

 

This is where the problem starts. Shooters that ordinarily would shoot a pistol, get pulled into PCC to finish higher, and stage designers can create stages that help or penalize PCC as a way of increasing or reducing the gap between PCC and pistol. This sets up conflict over stage design. But, the bigger problem for the long term health of our sport, is that many shooters are losing their pistol skills. Then when they try to start shooting a pistol again, they do so horribly they run back to their PCC. It is almost like them having to go through withdrawal from a drug addiction. 

 

Now, if we reported PCC as a completely separate match, it would take away conflicts over PCC friendly/unfriendly stages, and eliminate the incentive of higher overall placement which causes our members to abandon the core of our sport —  which is pistol skills. Long term, this seems like a way of allowing PCC to coexist with the other divisions, and preserve the core of our sport, which is shooting pistols. 

Your statement is akin to saying "I think we should report Revolver as a separate division than Open so people stop switching to a winning division and stage designers stop designing stages for 30 rounds magazines. " Every single division is reported independent of other divisions. Your standing overall is exactly as meaningless as the comparison between Open and Revolver. Divisions offer unique challenges and competition ONLY within a division based on the rules which define it. 

Reducing or eliminating pistol practice from your life is not an inherent problem in shooting PCC. If you neglect training your skills will degrade over time. Should shooters be forced to also shoot pistol? There are shooters that find no joy in pistols but now they pay dues to USPSA either directly or indirectly because of PCC. The core of the sport is Practical shooting. Your focus might be pistol. Go have fun and leave PCC alone if you don't want your PCC classification to affect class placement in pistol divisions. 

[HCH]

31 minutes ago, IVC said:

 

Desert Eagle comes in 44 Mag so it's a Pistol Caliber...

 

I love a good loophole!!

[ChuckS]

13 minutes ago, HCH said:

 

I love a good loophole!!

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, Acer2428 said:

 

I get what you're saying, but I think your perception of time is off or the guys you shoot with are ancient. Most stages are what, 20-30 seconds? So you're telling me the differential in MR/UNLSC is 3x LONGER than a pistol shooter is able to shoot the entire stage? That's not 60 seconds total, that's 60 seconds LONGER than an average pistol shooter. 

 

 

 

 

how long the stage takes to shoot is not relevant. total shooter time from make ready of 1 shooter to make ready of next shooter is relevant. when i work major matches i generally keep track of that interval by starting my stopwatch and keeping track of it as the shooters cycle through. it's not perception of time, it's measured time under major match conditions.

[HCH]

2 hours ago, ChuckS said:

 

Which was the basis of my complaint...

[GJM]

Currently, most of us get results from local matches by going to PractiScore. The default presentation is combined overall results with all divisions. You can select just a single division, but to my knowledge, can not deselect PCC so you have, for example, just the pistol divisions combined. Since the different divisions can be thin at a local match, folks often look at combined results. I would like it if PractiScore gave the option of seeing just the pistol divisions combined, with PCC separate. Ideally, they would also provide the ability to combine whatever divisions you wanted and see overall placement.

 

A PCC shooter, for example, could then see just PCC since they often say they only compete with other PCC shooters. If they wanted to, they could also combine PCC and Open. A CO shooter might want to combine CO and Limited. Not sure why this flexibility would harm anyone. It would also reduce the incentive for pistol shooters to mess with PCC shooters or PCC shooters to mess with pistol shooters in stage design, since high overall on PractiScore would no longer only be all divisions combined. 

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, GJM said:

. I would like it if PractiScore gave the option of seeing just the pistol divisions combined, with PCC separate. Ideally, they would also provide the ability to combine whatever divisions you wanted and see overall placement.

 

 

I said the same thing, and apparently the practiscore shooter app (cheap, but not free) does exactly that. My wife uses it, and I'm going to get it before this season gets going. Then I will never even know there were pcc's in the match!

[cheby]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Then I will never even know there were pcc's in the match!

Haha. I am going to do the same

[RaylanGivens]

Smitty had a "PCC Palooza" match at Frostproof last year...  Sold out in two days!

 

It was a blast...  PCC only...  rifle turned 45 and 90 degrees...  targets at 60 yards...  even a spinner...  stuff you don't get to shoot in a normal USPSA match...  Said he's going to have another one this year...  Fun match if you can get to central Florida.

 

[Sarge]

12 minutes ago, RaylanGivens said:

Smitty had a "PCC Palooza" match at Frostproof last year...  Sold out in two days!

 

It was a blast...  PCC only...  rifle turned 45 and 90 degrees...  targets at 60 yards...  even a spinner...  stuff you don't get to shoot in a normal USPSA match...  Said he's going to have another one this year...  Fun match if you can get to central Florida.

 

Perfect match for a rifle! Sounds fun

[Paulie]

I’m using the pronoun “you” generally and not directly toward OP:

 

1) Of course we can “coexist”. Some stage shenanigans are not a big deal. 

 

2) nobody noticed or cared if you came in 7th behind some PCC and Open shooters. It’s just in your head; let’s change your mentality instead of segregating and alienating PCC.

 

3) If hotshot PCC guys are beating you, use it as motivation to improve. Also, this is a game to be enjoyed not agonized over. 

 

4) Growing shooting sports and gun ownership in general is critical to preserving our rights. 

 

PS- I shoot iron sights. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Paulie

[HCH]

1 hour ago, Paulie said:

I’m using the pronoun “you” generally and not directly toward OP:

 

1) Of course we can “coexist”. Some stage shenanigans are not a big deal. 

 

2) nobody noticed or cared if you came in 7th behind some PCC and Open shooters. It’s just in your head; let’s change your mentality instead of segregating and alienating PCC.

 

3) If hotshot PCC guys are beating you, use it as motivation to improve. Also, this is a game to be enjoyed not agonized over. 

 

4) Growing shooting sports and gun ownership in general is critical to preserving our rights. 

 

PS- I shoot iron sights. 

 

No!!!! We have to revert to how the game was in 1983!!!!!!!!!!

[HoMiE]

6 hours ago, GJM said:

Currently, most of us get results from local matches by going to PractiScore. The default presentation is combined overall results with all divisions. You can select just a single division, but to my knowledge, can not deselect PCC so you have, for example, just the pistol divisions combined. Since the different divisions can be thin at a local match, folks often look at combined results. I would like it if PractiScore gave the option of seeing just the pistol divisions combined, with PCC separate. Ideally, they would also provide the ability to combine whatever divisions you wanted and see overall placement.

 

A PCC shooter, for example, could then see just PCC since they often say they only compete with other PCC shooters. If they wanted to, they could also combine PCC and Open. A CO shooter might want to combine CO and Limited. Not sure why this flexibility would harm anyone. It would also reduce the incentive for pistol shooters to mess with PCC shooters or PCC shooters to mess with pistol shooters in stage design, since high overall on PractiScore would no longer only be all divisions combined. 

Again, the competitor app does this. 

[ChuckS]

10 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Again, the competitor app does this. 

 

from: https://practiscore.com/dashboard/ourapps

 

[euxx]

This may give some better idea:
http://blog.practiscore.com/app-info/

And some youtube videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guhkRE6eafk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yBMYHIlYL0

 

[ChuckS]

More on Competitor. Besides scoring your fantasy USPSA match, you can use this tool to see how your performance was affected by different events. You can edit your scores to see what effect a mike or other penalty had on your score. It is a nice aid to help you prioritize what you need to practice!

 

It is well worth having!

[RaylanGivens]

And...  If you were scored with an AMG timer, PractiScore Competitor can graph your shots against other competitors to see how you compare with them on a shot by shot basis...  This is a simple graph of three PCC shooters on a classifier...  You can see that the three time strings are relatively the same, but the first shot time made the most difference.