Walls To Infinity

[willis103]

If a wall is designated to be to infinity would a procedural be appropriate if someone lifted their hand and gun over a corner of a wall to avoid it? See picture for context.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4wtox9vqwqucp85/uspsawalls.png?dl=0

[Maximis228]

No. That is meant so you cant shoot over stuff.

[MikeBurgess]

no penalty, shooter merely negotiating the course. same would go for grabbing the top of the wall for support (as long as it was part of the shooting area) just cant shoot over it for score.

[ChuckS]

While I don't disagree, I don't see where this is supported by any rule. (either can or can't). If one can swing their hand through the "infinite" wall, what would stop someone from rolling under a wall (that is "considered to go from the ground") to take a shortcut? There is no path to a penalty that I can find either.

[Sarge]

18 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

While I don't disagree, I don't see where this is supported by any rule. (either can or can't). If one can swing their hand through the "infinite" wall, what would stop someone from rolling under a wall (that is "considered to go from the ground") to take a shortcut? There is no path to a penalty that I can find either.

I agree that this is a conundrum.

[JAFO]

38 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

While I don't disagree, I don't see where this is supported by any rule. (either can or can't). If one can swing their hand through the "infinite" wall, what would stop someone from rolling under a wall (that is "considered to go from the ground") to take a shortcut? There is no path to a penalty that I can find either.

 

I seem to recall a video a few years ago with someone who slid under a wall to get to the final position rather than running around.  I remember thinking I'm not sure the potential road rash would be worth it, since it looked like a loose gravel bay.  I don't remember what the consensus was on the legality of the maneuver, although it was performed safely wrt the gun handling.

[waktasz]

That was a 3 gun match anyway

[d_striker]

There was a stage at a local match years ago when the rule was from ground to height constructed unless otherwise specified.  The stage involved a bag/prop that had to be used to activate a step pad.  Bag/prop was at the start of the stage and the step pad was at the end.  Since it was not specified that walls went from ground to infinity, most people were throwing the bag over one of the walls near the step pad so they could shoot the first portion of the stage freestyle without carrying the bag.

 

Had the WSB stated that walls went to infinity or had the stage been under the current rules regarding walls, I don't think throwing the bag over the wall would have been legit.  

 

So I don't agree that the rule is solely to limit people from shooting over walls.

[jhgtyre]

54 minutes ago, JAFO said:

 

I seem to recall a video a few years ago with someone who slid under a wall to get to the final position rather than running around.  I remember thinking I'm not sure the potential road rash would be worth it, since it looked like a loose gravel bay.  I don't remember what the consensus was on the legality of the maneuver, although it was performed safely wrt the gun handling.

I think you mean this video.  If not this is a pretty good example.

[JAFO]

Yep.  That was the one.

 

It could be argued that these rules define how barriers (walls) may be used, and therefore that competitors should not be allowed to cross under (or over, per the current ruling):

 

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

 

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

 

Ruling:

2.2.3.3 is amended to read: Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers, snow fence barriers and other constructs will be considered to go from the ground to infinity, provided said barrier is at least 6 feet, (allowable variation = -3 inches) in height. Any barrier less than 6 feet tall (-3 inch variation) specified as extending to infinity must be clearly identified in the WSB and marked accordingly, otherwise, all barriers less than 6 feet tall are considered to be \"height as built\" and may be used accordingly by competitors.

 

However, the last part of the wall height ruling seems to allow competitors to do whatever they wish over the top of a wall that's under 5' 9" tall.

 

 

[Steve RA]

Or under it if open at the bottom !

[Sarge]

57 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Or under it if open at the bottom !

I think all walls go from ground to either over 6’ or under 6’. There is no way to go under a wall in USPSA unless something id’s it as low port instead.

[Steve RA]

I remember quite a few, such as the one in the Birdsall slide video above.

 

6 feet, (allowable variation = -3 inches) in height. Any barrier less than 6 feet tall (-3 inch variation) specified as extending to infinity must be clearly identified in the WSB and marked accordingly, otherwise, all barriers less than 6 feet tall are considered to be \"height as built\" and may be used accordingly by competitors.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Steve RA
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[willis103]

Obviously you can't jump over or duck under if the wall is designated to infinity but my question is how much of your body is too much? I can grab the top of a wall that is in bounds for balance and that is OK. But can I lift my hand and gun over a 6' wall in order to turn a corner closer? Where is the line drawn?

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 There is no way to go under a wall in USPSA unless something id’s it as low port instead.

 

Then what do you do if someone does it?

[Nathanb]

I’ve seen it done. Some wall designs allow people to shoot under or go under the walls

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Then what do you do if someone does it?

procedural per shot fired probably.

 

this is a little bit of a gap in the rules, but I think common sense and keeping the spirit of the rules in mind can make this sort of thing a pretty easy call.

 

At A3 last year we had a bit of a discussion because they wanted to call a procedural for someone inadvertently putting a foot slightly under a wall while twisting to shoot from a final position (there was no fault line on the ground, just a wall that ended a couple feet above the ground). Fortunately the RM came to his senses before the shooter had to risk $100.

 

Personally I think you can't expect people to respect imaginary boundaries with random body parts or firearms they are carrying (except of course for the imaginary 180 boundary), but you can certainly expect people to not shoot through or put their bodies through those boundaries, so that's how I would enforce it.

[HoMiE]

3 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Then what do you do if someone does it?

Don’t think you can give a procedural, probably have to call it a forbidden action and have competitor reshoot stage. 

[Flatland Shooter]

8 hours ago, jhgtyre said:

I think you mean this video.  If not this is a pretty good example.

 

Hmm, playing Devil's advocate, under USPSA Multi-Gun rule 10.5.15 "drawing a gun while facing uprange or while prone", would this be close to a DQ?    Not quite in this case but if someone tried to mimic his move and was a little early on the draw?

 

 

 

[waktasz]

24 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Hmm, playing Devil's advocate, under USPSA Multi-Gun rule 10.5.15 "drawing a gun while facing uprange or while prone", would this be close to a DQ?    Not quite in this case but if someone tried to mimic his move and was a little early on the draw?

 

 

 

 

He was never prone or close to prone at all in that video

[Flatland Shooter]

14 minutes ago, waktasz said:

 

He was never prone or close to prone at all in that video

 

When he slid under the wall,  his left leg all the way from his hip to his foot and his left hand were all on the ground and his head was below both shoulders.  How much closer to flat on your face be required to be "prone"?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Flatland Shooter

[Hammer002]

13 hours ago, JAFO said:

Yep.  That was the one.

 

It could be argued that these rules define how barriers (walls) may be used, and therefore that competitors should not be allowed to cross under (or over, per the current ruling):

 

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

 

2.2.1 Competitor movement may be restricted or controlled through the use of physical barriers, Fault Lines, Shooting Boxes, or Off-Limits Lines.

 

Ruling:

2.2.3.3 is amended to read: Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers, snow fence barriers and other constructs will be considered to go from the ground to infinity, provided said barrier is at least 6 feet, (allowable variation = -3 inches) in height. Any barrier less than 6 feet tall (-3 inch variation) specified as extending to infinity must be clearly identified in the WSB and marked accordingly, otherwise, all barriers less than 6 feet tall are considered to be \"height as built\" and may be used accordingly by competitors.

 

However, the last part of the wall height ruling seems to allow competitors to do whatever they wish over the top of a wall that's under 5' 9" tall.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Then what do you do if someone does it?

 

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

procedural per shot fired probably.

 

this is a little bit of a gap in the rules, but I think common sense and keeping the spirit of the rules in mind can make this sort of thing a pretty easy call.

 

At A3 last year we had a bit of a discussion because they wanted to call a procedural for someone inadvertently putting a foot slightly under a wall while twisting to shoot from a final position (there was no fault line on the ground, just a wall that ended a couple feet above the ground). Fortunately the RM came to his senses before the shooter had to risk $100.

 

Personally I think you can't expect people to respect imaginary boundaries with random body parts or firearms they are carrying (except of course for the imaginary 180 boundary), but you can certainly expect people to not shoot through or put their bodies through those boundaries, so that's how I would enforce it.

 

This has been a good discussion on a situation I wasn't completely clear on.  I would have assumed at best the shooter, violating the infinite wall rule either by general rule or written in WSB would possibly get a procedural.  Possibly as mentioned here, more.  At worse, or what I would have assumed to be the case, especially if purposefully done to gain an advantage, it would be a reshoot.  Isnt that how its handled if someone alters the course of fire significantly such as moving barrels, walls, etc?  I guess I'm equating going under a wall to gain a time advantage to moving a stack of barrels or wall to be able to pass through as having the same consequence/outcome.  Dunno?

[stick]

I'll play devils advocate.

What about fault lines?  I understand they don't go to infinity but, don't most of us cut across them to save time?  Could it be argued he was just cutting time?

[davsco]

2 hours ago, stick said:

I'll play devils advocate.

What about fault lines?  I understand they don't go to infinity but, don't most of us cut across them to save time?  Could it be argued he was just cutting time?

yeah i thought the wall rules were akin to fault lines.  you can go over and around them etc but just can't shoot while doing so (at least without penalty).

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, stick said:

I'll play devils advocate.

What about fault lines?  I understand they don't go to infinity but, don't most of us cut across them to save time?  Could it be argued he was just cutting time?

 

16 minutes ago, davsco said:

yeah i thought the wall rules were akin to fault lines.  you can go over and around them etc but just can't shoot while doing so (at least without penalty).

You can step over a line but can’t walk through walls right? Try it at home and report back. 

 USPSA walls are meant to replicate actual real, solid walls. There is no such thing as “under” in a real wall. And if a real wall goes to infinity there is no such thing as “over”.

  Of course the rules confuse some because they don’t state the obvious. They also don’t account for snow fence where the RO has to watch closely to see if a competitor shoots through it. If I see you shoot through snow fence at a paper target you will get two mikes just like you would if you shot through plywood walls. I would do the same for shooting under it if I knew exactly which target you shot. If I can’t tell for sure I would clarify what a wall is and reshoot you. If you are an FNG I would most likely stop you as soon as you got down to shoot under a wall to save you some WWB.