Walls To Infinity

[davsco]

oh i thought the challenge with snow fence walls was shooting thru the holes in them, i mean, why leave holes in them if they don't want you shooting thru them... ahaha

[JAFO]

14 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Don’t think you can give a procedural, probably have to call it a forbidden action and have competitor reshoot stage. 

 

A forbidden action seems like the way to go.  You can't really point to a rule to use for a procedural, unless you can spin that moving through the assumed solid wall is violating a stage procedure per 10.2.2.  And off-limits lines wouldn't be practical, since they require distance from the shooting area.

 

But the forbidden action is based on the assumption that going under the wall is likely to cause an unsafe condition.  That might be argued, since the competitor is always responsible for safe gun handling, and it is possible to cross under some walls safely as long as muzzle and finger discipline is maintained.  Also, 2.3.1.1. b states that you cannot use a Forbidden Action to otherwise limit competitor movement within a course of fire without the unsafe condition.

 

2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in order to maintain safety during a course of fire.

a. Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition.

b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from "cutting the corner" on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers, physical barriers, or off -limits lines.

c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and (b), an area of the range floor may be declared off- limits. The area must be clearly delineated with Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.5). Crossing an Off- Limits Line. will result in a zero for the stage.

d. Any Forbidden Action or Off- Limits Area must be specified in the Written Stage Briefing (See Rules 2.3.3 and 3.2.3).

 

 

 

5 hours ago, stick said:

I'll play devils advocate.

What about fault lines?  I understand they don't go to infinity but, don't most of us cut across them to save time?  Could it be argued he was just cutting time?

 

Considering that fault lines aren't mentioned in the highlighted part above, they aren't treated the same as barriers.  You can cut across fault lines (outside of IPSC), but barriers are specifically intended to limit movement.

[waktasz]

Spike strips then

[Sarge]

19 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

Then what do you do if someone does it?

I think I would stop them and explain what a wall is.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I think I would stop them and explain what a wall is.

 

Sarge, I think the question is not if they understand and require explanation, but when they do understand and do so anyway.  Procedural(s) or reshoot?  Agree with your previous post about the intentions of wall rules to represent actual solid walls and to be treated and navigated as such.  Waktasz seems to wonder the same as I, what do you call as an RO or MD for blatant disregard of this rule such as in the video or examples here if it was a USPSA match?

Edited July 25, 2018 by Hammer002

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Sarge, I think the question is not if they understand and require explanation, but when they do understand and do so anyway.  Procedural(s) or reshoot?  Agree with your previous post about the intentions of wall rules to represent actual solid walls and to be treated and navigated as such.  Waktasz seems to wonder the same as I, what do you call as an RO or MD for blatant disregard of this rule such as in the video or examples here if it was a USPSA match?

i've given this some more thought and I think instead of a per-shot procedural for going 'under' a wall that goes to the ground, I would just call every shot after that point a hardcover mike. I think the rules support that better. It's no different than shooting 'under' or through the wall. If bullets can't go through the wall and score, neither can the shooter.

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Sarge, I think the question is not if they understand and require explanation, but when they do understand and do so anyway.  Procedural(s) or reshoot?  Agree with your previous post about the intentions of wall rules to represent actual solid walls and to be treated and navigated as such.  Waktasz seems to wonder the same as I, what do you call as an RO or MD for blatant disregard of this rule such as in the video or examples here if it was a USPSA match?

 

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsports-manlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

 

"I stopped you because you went through a wall that is deemed to go from the ground to infinity.  Don't go through the imaginary solid wall."  Seems like a reasonable direction to me.

[sfinney]

Looking at the original picture, was the shooter trying to keep from running his hand and gun into the wall at speed (ouch) or gaining a competitive advantage? I would rather have someone keep from running into props rather than hitting then and possibly dropping his gun, rather than not having the presence of mind to raise it up over the obstruction. No shots fired over the top of wall, no advantage gained? Or is the advantage he didn't have to side step half a step while moving? Not sure raising the gun up that high and then back down again would be an advantage over a slight shuffle to the side.

[JAFO]

I agree that I'm not sure the shooter in the OP's pic really gained anything.  I think the discussion drifted more towards those that might be tempted to go under a wall, rather than extending their gun hand over it.

[stick]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

 

You can step over a line but can’t walk through walls right? Try it at home and report back. 

 USPSA walls are meant to replicate actual real, solid walls. There is no such thing as “under” in a real wall. And if a real wall goes to infinity there is no such thing as “over”.

  Of course the rules confuse some because they don’t state the obvious. They also don’t account for snow fence where the RO has to watch closely to see if a competitor shoots through it. If I see you shoot through snow fence at a paper target you will get two mikes just like you would if you shot through plywood walls. I would do the same for shooting under it if I knew exactly which target you shot. If I can’t tell for sure I would clarify what a wall is and reshoot you. If you are an FNG I would most likely stop you as soon as you got down to shoot under a wall to save you some WWB.

I Tried walking through walls and it didn't work.  

[stick]

 @Sargeon a serious note. please explain rule 2.2.3.3  

The only reason I ask is because our club decided to cut down the walls to help stop the wind blowing them around.  Can I shoot over them according to rule 2.2.3.3?  Seeing I'm 6'5" it's easier to shoot over them instead of squatting down to shoot through the ports that are now made for midgets.

[Ssanders224]

11 minutes ago, stick said:

 @Sargeon a serious note. please explain rule 2.2.3.3  

The only reason I ask is because our club decided to cut down the walls to help stop the wind blowing them around.  Can I shoot over them according to rule 2.2.3.3?  Seeing I'm 6'5" it's easier to shoot over them instead of squatting down to shoot through the ports that are now made for midgets.

 

If the wall is less than 69", and the WSB does not clearly state that the walls "go to infinity", then yes, you can shoot over it. 

[Sarge]

3 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Sarge, I think the question is not if they understand and require explanation, but when they do understand and do so anyway.  Procedural(s) or reshoot?  Agree with your previous post about the intentions of wall rules to represent actual solid walls and to be treated and navigated as such.  Waktasz seems to wonder the same as I, what do you call as an RO or MD for blatant disregard of this rule such as in the video or examples here if it was a USPSA match?

Well, when you use the words blatant disregard, in my opinion that translates to cheating? I would possibly consider 10.6 depending on the entire episode. By just can’t see a way to issue a procedural for those acts. I’m not sure waving his hand over the top of a wall is in the same zip code as shooting or diving under a wall but it still should theoretically be impossible.

 

[Sarge]

37 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

If the wall is less than 69", and the WSB does not clearly state that the walls "go to infinity", then yes, you can shoot over it. 

That’s correct. If they need short walls for routine Windy conditions all they have to do is put in the WSB a default blip that they go from ground to infinity 

[jcc7x7]

No shots fired, not a problem IMO

Shoots fired , ie the rounds then went through a solid object = i.e no score

Just a thought

[Sarge]

Just now, jcc7x7 said:

No shots fired, not a problem IMO

Shoots fired , ie the rounds then went through a solid object = i.e no score

Just a thought

Agreed as long as you can tell exactly what targets they engaged.

[jcc7x7]

Just now, Sarge said:

Agreed as long as you can tell exactly what targets they engaged.

Agreed.  

[Hammer002]

33 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Well, when you use the words blatant disregard, in my opinion that translates to cheating? I would possibly consider 10.6 depending on the entire episode. By just can’t see a way to issue a procedural for those acts. I’m not sure waving his hand over the top of a wall is in the same zip code as shooting or diving under a wall but it still should theoretically be impossible.

 

 

Agreed, I kinda went past the original scenario as it didn’t seem intentional to gain an advantage and my brain moved on to what if it is.  The video is a good example of the extreme, but so is shooting through snow fence as you said.  With thought, it would seem the original picture/scenario really doesn’t require any action as no shots were fired and no advantage gained.  In the slide under it would be a “stop” as soon as he went under with a discretion of reshoot or unsportsmanlike.  Shooting through the snow fence or any other type of wall equals mikes.  Seems like a multifaceted discussion, so am I close here?  And yes, I was pretty much referring to cheating, so, good point on that call.

[3gunDQ]

Wall “bases” is where the rules get dumb AF. If there is not fault line between the wall and the wall touches a fault line then you can stand on the wall bases? Yes.

bulls#!t! Yes it is bulls#!t but it is what it is. But the wall extend to infinity!!! The base is not part of the wall... to that I say “is the base of your dick not part of your dick?”

 

[Jay63]

We always put in our WSB , walls are considered hard cover. They extend to the ground and up to infinity. So if someone shoots targets under or over walls all hits on targets are mikes.

[Eureka1911]

So what is the difference between a wall to infinity and a short barrier? At what height does it become a wall? We shot a stage this weekend where at the end there were 2 targets on the ground behind a 4 foot "wall". Targets were at a 45 to the ground. Does the WSB then define the difference?

[Flatland Shooter]

10 minutes ago, Eureka1911 said:

So what is the difference between a wall to infinity and a short barrier?   At what height does it become a wall? W

 

From NROI Rulings:

 

2.2.3.3 is amended to read: Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, all such barriers, walls, vision barriers, snow fence barriers and other constructs will be considered to go from the ground to infinity, provided said barrier is at least 6 feet, (allowable variation = -3 inches) in height. Any barrier less than 6 feet tall (-3 inch variation) specified as extending to infinity must be clearly identified in the WSB and marked accordingly, otherwise, all barriers less than 6 feet tall are considered to be \"height as built\" and may be used accordingly by competitors.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Eureka1911 said:

So what is the difference between a wall to infinity and a short barrier? At what height does it become a wall? We shot a stage this weekend where at the end there were 2 targets on the ground behind a 4 foot "wall". Targets were at a 45 to the ground. Does the WSB then define the difference?

That’s pretty typical. 

[perttime]

Yep. Rules state which walls go to infinity - and stage briefing can define it further. I haven't recently shot a contest with low barriers but there's at least one coming up that has lots of those. Looks Like I will be very near the targets that are put behind them.

[Eureka1911]

It was a stage like this where I learned the painful lesson to shoot ALL the target. Stage had 2 paper described as above at the end. Ran a great stage feeling all warm and fuzzy about how well it went. RO issued command "IF you are done....." Should have taken the hint before Unloading and showing clear. DOH!!!