RO talking to shooter after LMR

[Thomas H]

8 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

Level 1 has the most new shooters.  Welcome them.

 

Irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

8 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

You gain nothing by imposing your C class domination on a D class shooter by way of trying to convince everyone how good you are.

 

Projecting what you think is happening onto the situation doesn't mean you are correct.  And also irrelevant.

 

8 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

If you achieve success, you will find its being relaxed that makes you shoot well, or do any sport well.  Treating any stage as though is the Nationals, even the Nationals is absolutely the wrong frame of mind.  The best advice I got from a national champion was treat EVERY match as though it's just another match, just another stage.

 

Different National champions think differently.  I can tell you, however, that having watched a number of national champions shoot, they treat smaller match stages like National stages rather than National match stages like smaller match stages.  So indeed, it is just another match and another stage---that they treat as seriously (well, except for Taran sometimes ) as a hugely important match.

 

8 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

With that said, I've trained my pre shot routine to where it's the same in practice, club match, shooting with the wife, or the world championship being decided by one point and whether the dude with the timer says make ready or shooter make ready is of no consequence.  No, I don't chit chat after make ready, nor would I likely even hear if the RO did, because my pre shot routine has started my concentration and I'm going through my motions and then waiting for a beep.

 

As Sarge said, you are only seeing one side of this---and lots of the other comments are about the RO's responsibilities.  Which, among other things, are not to distract the shooter.  If you personally can handle it, great.  That has nothing to do with the responsibilities of the RO.

 

8 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 I'm not there to impose my supposed dominance, or there lack of, on other people.  

 

Again, projection.  Nothing anyone else has said.

 

8 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

I'm there to shoot my best, and part of that is training to the point you cannot be distracted.  If you can be, it's YOU who needs some improvement, rather than pointing fingers outward.  Preparation IS everything, but you haven't done it right if you are thrown off your game cause the RO asks you how you are doing and remarks about how it's a bit warm today instead of make ready.  If you are wound so tight every little thing bothers you, like many sound here, take a look in the mirror and ask what you are really doing cause you are standing in the way of your own success.

 

I've met two, and only two types of shooting competitors:. The real shooters at any skill level, and the rule lawyers.  Have yet to meet one that's both.

 

Huh.  I've met all types.  And they don't separate nearly that easily.  On the other hand, I'm an RO and a CRO, and you aren't, so perhaps we have a different perspective on things, since we are looking at this from different viewpoints.

 

Most importantly---part of the RO training is to not get in the shooter's way, either physically or mentally, when they are attempting a stage.  This isn't about whether or not the competitor can handle it (which seems to be your focus), it is about what the RO is supposed to do.  Especially since there are many shooters who can and will be put off their game by distractions---because we aren't going to point fingers at the shooters and say "Well, too bad, it's YOU who need some improvement because if you can be thrown off your game because the RO asks you how you are doing and remarks about how it's a bit warm then you just aren't good enough."

 

Because we AREN'T there to impose dominance.  The ROs are there to let people do their best.  And that means staying out of their way.  Which means mentally, too.

 

[teros135]

Nicely said, Thomas H.  Thanks.  

[3gunDQ]

Our local matchs do not have a designated RO... everyone on the squad helps out and does their part. The only thing I will say to a shooter other than the standard commands are instructions on the start position.... like hands up, face down range, etc. If you talk about BS then you are not doing anyone any favors. Be courteous to the shooter and allow him the best opportunity to have a good run. ROs are there for safety and nothing else. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by 3gunDQ

[B_RAD]

So many excellent points have been made!  I'm glad I asked. This has been very informative.  

 

By the way I am RO certified. This will also help me going forward on that front as well. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by B_RAD

[B_RAD]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

Projecting what you think is happening onto the situation doesn't mean you are correct.  

 

I will say he's kinda not all that close either.  

Edited September 20, 2017 by B_RAD

[Sarge]

9 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

THAT is what u got out of my post???  I'm clearly wasting my time here.  My apologies.

No, but apparently that's all you got from mine. Which seems to be the problem.

[wtturn]

Rough crowd.  Geez, I wonder how some of you ever experience some of the fun that's supposed to be associated with this sport being so uptight.  Level 2 and 3, yeah, maybe, but come on, lighten up.  If your concentration is broken that easily, you are doing it wrong.  Or maybe arguing is what you are there for because you do that better than shooting.....met plenty like that.

Talking is not fun.

Winning is fun.

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

Treating any stage as though is the Nationals, even the Nationals is absolutely the wrong frame of mind.  

 

The best advice I got from a national champion was treat EVERY match as though it's just another match, just another stage.  

 

These two statements are mutually exclusive. If you treat every match as tho it is just another match, you are treating every match like it is nationals. (which is the correct frame of mind imho, btw).

[9x45]

The Rule Book, as usual, covers it pretty well.

 

CHAPTER 7: Match Management
7.1 Match Officials
The duties and terms of reference of Match Officials are defined as follows:
7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master).
 

8.3 Range Communication
The approved range commands and their sequence are as follows:
8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range
32 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition
Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accor-dance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position.

 

8.6 Assistance or Interference
8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.
8.6.2 Any person providing interference or unauthorized assistance to a competitor during a course of fire (and the competitor receiving such assistance) may, at the discretion of a Range Officer, incur a
34 USPSA Handgun Rules, February 2014 Edition
procedural penalty for that stage and/or be subject to Section 10.6.
8.6.2.1 When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request.

 

8.6.4 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However, in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

 

NROI

 

Range Officer's Creed

As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions.

I shall always be courteous while maintaining firm control over my range and areas of responsibility.

I will always strive to be totally fair and impartial in my judgments.

Safety shall always be my primary goal, with efficiency and speed of the competition as secondary factors.

It is a privilege and an honor to serve as a Range Officer and I shall act accordingly.

It is my duty to assist all competitors in their attempts to accomplish their goals and not to hinder them by undue harassment and authoritarian behavior.

I shall put aside personal prejudices and act as an impartial judge at all times.

I shall keep my opinions to myself and shall not be critical of any individual beyond the field of contest.

I will thoroughly familiarize myself with all current regulations, match rules and attendant subjects.

I will be firm and fair in all judgmental calls made during the course of a stage, and be prepared to state in a clear and concise manner my reasons for such calls to the particular competitor or any Range Official.

During the course of a stage, my attention shall be clearly focused on the particular competitor I am assigned to observe, and I shall not permit my attention to be misdirected or lax.

Prior to and during a stage, I shall never consume any alcoholic beverage or narcotic. I understand that if I violate this rule, I may be suspended or barred from serving as a Range Official in the future.

I shall confer only with my fellow Range Officers and Match Officials concerning the behavior of any competitor and any decisions to be rendered.

I shall exercise due consideration for the personal emotions of any competitor, and shall act in a manner so as not to embarrass or disturb the competitor any more than is absolutely necessary.

I shall strive to never give even the appearance of wrongdoing.

 

[CHA-LEE]

When working as an RO/CRO running the Timer, you need to take the job seriously, follow the rules, and respect the shooters turn to perform. What one person considers a harmless social conversation during the MR process can be annoying or distracting to another person. When I am running the timer, I purposefully restrict my verbal communication to only the Range Commands and simple Yes/No answers to pointed questions from the shooter. I use hand gestures as much as I can instead of speaking to further minimize distraction or confusion. I also patiently wait however long it takes for the shooter to Make Ready regardless of my impression of it taking too long. Its their time to do as they wish and I shouldn't be the one to negatively impact that process.

 

On average it takes about 2 minutes to run a shooter through a stage from start to finish. If you can't restrain yourself from initiating inappropriate social conversations for that short of a time period, then you probably shouldn't be running the timer. If you want to chit chat with the shooter or peanut gallery incessantly then don't RO.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like socializing with people while on the range shooting or ROing. But as with many other things in life, there is an appropriate time for doing that. I am all for having fun and keeping the overall mood on the stage in a positive manner. But when its time to work and respect others time to get their job done, I am all business.

[3gunDQ]

^das da troof

[terrydoc]

Guy's we have no issue when the shooter wants to train as if the match is a Nationals or higher level, so why does there seem to be an aversion for the RO to do the same?

I know I have been caught out a couple of times at overseas matches where you slip back into the L1 mode as some call it by saying hello and a bit of a chat. But what happens when you deal with people that only know the english for range commands? 

Shooter comes to the line and you say "hi how is your match going" and they draw the gun and proceed to LAMR. Who's in error? And believe me it does happen as I said I've been caught a couple of times.

So in my opinion it's just easier to stick to the script until after the Competitor has finished to have a chat.

 

[Sandbagger123]

8 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

When working as an RO/CRO running the Timer, you need to take the job seriously, follow the rules, and respect the shooters turn to perform. What one person considers a harmless social conversation during the MR process can be annoying or distracting to another person. When I am running the timer, I purposefully restrict my verbal communication to only the Range Commands and simple Yes/No answers to pointed questions from the shooter. I use hand gestures as much as I can instead of speaking to further minimize distraction or confusion. I also patiently wait however long it takes for the shooter to Make Ready regardless of my impression of it taking too long. Its their time to do as they wish and I shouldn't be the one to negatively impact that process.

 

On average it takes about 2 minutes to run a shooter through a stage from start to finish. If you can't restrain yourself from initiating inappropriate social conversations for that short of a time period, then you probably shouldn't be running the timer. If you want to chit chat with the shooter or peanut gallery incessantly then don't RO.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like socializing with people while on the range shooting or ROing. But as with many other things in life, there is an appropriate time for doing that. I am all for having fun and keeping the overall mood on the stage in a positive manner. But when its time to work and respect others time to get their job done, I am all business.

Agree 100 percent 

[TheBrick]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 6:35 PM, Nathanb said:

I had to look at your location. I know a guy like this that never shuts up. 

Couldn't be Howie?

[191138sc]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 4:45 PM, racerba said:

 

I never say ANYTHING when the shooter is at the line besides the range command...

Was taught that a while ago by an RM more experienced than me

 

This is what I was taught when I became an RO. Never say ANYTHING except the range commands regardless if it is L1 Club match or Nationals. Occasionally the shooter will ask a question about the COF and of course you want to clarify.

Edited September 27, 2017 by 191138sc

[cody6477]

Whether or not the shooter can "handle" extraneous conversation is beside the point.  I'm not mad strict about it, but part of my job is staying out of the way.  As an RO, I don't have the warrant to take the chance of being disruptive, or the mind-reading skills to be sure I can tell who can or can't respond okay.  

[IHAVEGAS]

On 9/18/2017 at 8:58 AM, 9x45 said:

 

 

If you get an RO who can't abide by the USPSA Rules for commands, tell him you paid for a USPSA match, that you are going to go by the rules and expect them to do the same. If they argue, then ask if they are NROI certified (which is not required at a Level One match), however most RO's are not anyway. If it goes beyond that, then ask for an RO who follows the commands. 

 

 

As I understand it, the first rule of being an r.o. Is "don't be a dick". As a shooter that seems like a good rule also. 

[reverse_edge]

17 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

As I understand it, the first rule of being an r.o. Is "don't be a dick". As a shooter that seems like a good rule also. 

 

I think that's a pretty good rule for most things, honestly. 

[Racinready300ex]

I get a little annoyed with it, but typically it just makes me spend more time on making ready.

 

I did ask for a re shoot once when between the standby and the beep the guy with the clip board told me to engage the targets on the left 1st. I was clearly looking to the right and not planning to engage the left first. It did mess me up some, because I started thinking about weather or not my plan was okay or not. My run was shitty, and as soon as I got ULSC I asked for a re shoot.

 

I shot it the same way the second time, but it went much better.

[Joe4d]

Expired but one time CRO at Area 8...
If I am talking to a shooter after MR,,, Not LMR...  something is wrong and I am probably standing directly in front of them until it gets fixed.
Say "MAke ready"   but then I notice a target un pasted or steel not reset or something else going on.
"STOP" !  At that point I will take physical control of gun if needed because of language... If Not I will command HOLSTER Hands up and step infront of shooter, and direct peanut gallery to fix problem.
If at any time I need to stop or say anything between MR and BEEEEEP....  I will "STOP" take care of whats needed then start over at the beginning with make ready.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Joe4d

[JWBaldree]

Let's not forget that the shooter has the option of calling 'time' and 'stepping out'. as it were, much like a baseball player calling time and stepping out of the batters box. No I'm not suggesting taking a walk around after MR, but something gets in your head or is distraction before the beep, then simply tell the RO to wait and start your prep routine over. In addition, if something did distract me or cause me to ask for 'time', I take a 'wipe away' before restarting my routine. Ever notice baseball players readjusting their gloves after every pitch or grabbing some dirt and rubbing it in between their gloves? Those are both 'wipe aways', as if to say "Hey let that one go, lets get back in the game." Then they start their prep routine and reenter the batters box for the next pitch. As shooters we sometimes forget that we are in charge of our whole performance, and that includes everything between MR and the beep.

 

My biggest RO distraction comes when I am clearly not in the ready position but the RO is hitting me with AYR, SB and then the beep, all in the space of a couple of seconds. Usually happens with newer ROs on wrists above shoulders starts. I usually raise my weak hand first followed by my strong hand at a slower pace (strong hand comes up from the grip in a pivot from my elbow, and I want to be able to reverse the motion with a fast pivot back down to the grip). New RO will see my weak hand come up and blurt out Are You Ready Stand By Beep at cyclic speed while I am yelling wait or no or hold it. At that point I wipe it away and start my prep routine over. Doesn't happen that often, but usually once a year.

[reverse_edge]

Those are some good points. I think as shooters, we forget we're in control of the situation. 

 

One of the first times I helped RO at a local, I accidentally quick-beeped a pretty good local shooter. Felt pretty bad, but lesson learned.... 

 

[davsco]

15 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

My biggest RO distraction comes when I am clearly not in the ready position but the RO is hitting me with AYR

yes, hate this, wait until the shooter is clearly ready

 

of course, i get some shooters that say they're ready yet still moving around...

[wtturn]

1 hour ago, reverse_edge said:

Those are some good points. I think as shooters, we forget we're in control of the situation. 

 

One of the first times I helped RO at a local, I accidentally quick-beeped a pretty good local shooter. Felt pretty bad, but lesson learned.... 

 

 

I did the same thing.  Growing pains.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, reverse_edge said:

One of the first times I helped RO at a local, I accidentally quick-beeped a pretty good local shooter. Felt pretty bad, but lesson learned.... 

 

Not sure if it is the best approach. I'm looking at the gun hand as I push the button, I do not consciously vary the timing but give it 3 ish seconds assuming I see no jumping the signal. 

 

I'm thinking that a good shooter would lose more advantage trying to anticipate the signal than they would if they were focused only on trying to start asap on the signal.