littlefish Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) "And to some extent, this is actually happening. I am looking forward to when PCC gets big enough to have its own match, and people won't have to choose between rifles or handguns. At that point, I would consider learning a bit about rifle too, even if it was only staying after the pistol match to shoot half of the stages as a small rifle match. " So that's when the matches should change to two gun format (pistol/carbine) and that would be even more fun... Edited June 12, 2017 by littlefish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) My big thought on the "sweeping rule" with a flagged gun is no different than being sweeped by a gun in a case or a hand gun in a holster. In my opinion I am more comfortable with people walking around with exposed rifles with chamber flags than rifles in gun cases. At least I know the gun is inert with a chamber flag. I don't know the statistics but I can summarize more people have been shot by discharges from guns in holster or cases then ones with chamber flags. Also how likely is someone to be shot in the "make ready" of a pistol shooter vs rifle? I only point these things out to expose the hysteria around safety with PCC vs what we already deal with with pistols. Edited June 13, 2017 by brisix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 24 minutes ago, brisix said: My big thought on the "sweeping rule" with a flagged gun is no different than being sweeped by a gun in a case or a hand gun in a holster. In my opinion I am more comfortable with people walking around with exposed rifles with chamber flags than rifles in gun cases. At least I know the gun is inert with a chamber flag. I don't know the statistics but I can summarize more people have been shot by discharges from guns in holster or cases then ones with chamber flags. Also how likely is someone to be shot in the "make ready" of a pistol shooter vs rifle? I only point these things out to expose the hysteria around safety with PCC vs what we already deal with with pistols. Ok, I'll bite. Please tell us the specific instances of somebody being shot by a (supposedly unloaded) gun in a holster or in a case at USPSA. "Hysteria", really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 No attempt to troll. Just pointing out the ridiculous safety concerns about PCC that has been cleared by an RO and then has a chamber flagged inserted. If your concerned about being flagged by a rifle with a chamber flag then you should be equally concerned about a bagged rifle or a holstered gun. Just logical thinking through it. The being shot by a gun in a holster or bag comment has more to do with general population thinking a gun is clear or there is a malfunction and the gun goes off. Either way one can logically come up with a gun going off in a holster or a bag. A gun cannot fire with a chamber flag. Hence safer. This leads me to think people's safety concerns about people walking around with rifles with chamber flags has more to do with them not wanting a rifle at a pistol match then it has to do with safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcc7x7 Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 2 hours ago, brisix said: This leads me to think people's safety concerns about people walking around with rifles with chamber flags has more to do with them not wanting a rifle at a pistol match then it has to do with safety. Bingo!!! Rifles at a pistol match, there are plenty of rifle matches go play there. Everybody understands the flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 The butthurt over PCC is hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 35 minutes ago, Shadyscott999 said: The butthurt over PCC is hilarious. Its okay. You'll feel better in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, teros135 said: Its okay. You'll feel better in time. I feel fine. PCC has yet to touch me in my no no spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Scott Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 15 hours ago, Shadyscott999 said: I feel fine. PCC has yet to touch me in my no no spot. Eventually it will, or so the internet tells me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGus Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 It's a micro view, but in local matches in this area I'm seeing PCC shooters consistently shoot much better than their respective pistol classification. A newly minted PCC GM in this area that has shot a handful of Production classifiers is consistently at C class level with a pistol. This person hasn't shot much pistol, so it's probably not a fair comparison. I have no issues with PCC. I bought a JPE GMR 13 and plan on giving it a try. Looks like fun, which is my main objective when shooting a match. But without having to draw from a holster, mags that hold 40 plus rounds, able to brace a PCC against your shoulder for added control, and PCC's that have absolutely no recoil thus not waiting for sights or red dots to settle, has to provide some advantages over a pistol, right? And I'm not concerned about safety issues with PCC at matches. PCC shooters are just as responsible as any pistol shooters when it comes to safety even though the gun isn't holstered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncman Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 I think it is funny, bringing a rifle to a pistol match. I do have a PCC, but only shoot pistols in USPSA. When I master the pistol, I might consider the PCC. But for me it is a personal quest to reach master or Grandmaster with my pistol. Shot long range F Class for years, done with the rifle thing for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, JGus said: A newly minted PCC GM in this area that has shot a handful of Production classifiers is consistently at C class level with a pistol. This person hasn't shot much pistol, so it's probably not a fair comparison. Even though that's only one example, I think that brings up a possible question on whether PCC classifications should be allowed to haul all of your other classifications up to one below your PCC class. We have a shooter who uses a PCC in Steel Challenge who made a few GM-level stage times recently, but he's around the B/C class level with a pistol. Should making M or GM with a PCC bring his CO/Production/etc up to A or M? ETA: I realize that SC is a different beast, since you don't have to worry about maneuvering a PCC in or around walls, doors, etc. Edited June 16, 2017 by JAFO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Scott Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 On 6/16/2017 at 2:13 PM, JAFO said: Even though that's only one example, I think that brings up a possible question on whether PCC classifications should be allowed to haul all of your other classifications up to one below your PCC class. We have a shooter who uses a PCC in Steel Challenge who made a few GM-level stage times recently, but he's around the B/C class level with a pistol. Should making M or GM with a PCC bring his CO/Production/etc up to A or M? ETA: I realize that SC is a different beast, since you don't have to worry about maneuvering a PCC in or around walls, doors, etc. This is a interesting part of the PCC thing. I look at it this way. We have these classifications that are dependent on our PISTOL skills and the reason you get bumped up in other divisions when you make M/GM is that the skills you used to make M/GM transfer to other PISTOLS. Should USPSA be bumping our PISTOL classifications based on our RIFLE skills? I think not. That said, I don't actually care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff226 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 On 6/16/2017 at 2:13 PM, JAFO said: Even though that's only one example, I think that brings up a possible question on whether PCC classifications should be allowed to haul all of your other classifications up to one below your PCC class. We have a shooter who uses a PCC in Steel Challenge who made a few GM-level stage times recently, but he's around the B/C class level with a pistol. Should making M or GM with a PCC bring his CO/Production/etc up to A or M? ETA: I realize that SC is a different beast, since you don't have to worry about maneuvering a PCC in or around walls, doors, etc. Whether PCC belongs at a pistol match aside, no...I can't see any reason why your pistol classifications should be adjusted according to your PCC results. Is that actually being considered somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 That is actually how the system works now… If you are classified as M in Open and then shoot Production your classification in Production will not be lower than an 'A' (one step down from 'M') no matter how badly you suck at it: Quote C - Scores that are more than one class below the member's highest classification in any other division are flagged with "C." For example, if a member with an ‘A’ classification in Open division submits a C-class score in Limited division, the score will be assigned a "C" flag. An exception to this is if the member has not established a classification in a division. If a member is not classified in a division, all scores higher than 2 percent will be entered in that division until a classification is earned. However, if the resulting classification is more than one class below the other division’s classification, the member will be automatically moved to the classification bracket that is one class below the other division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmooberry Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I think the classification system might cause some people to shy away from PCC. If they are just playing around in the division but end up hitting A or M, or even GM, they are going to have to figure out how to compete at the higher pistol level! I don't have much interest in PCC, so it doesn't matter to me. But it does seem that it would make things MUCH more difficult if someone started the sport with a PCC then decided to go to a handgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I brought that up in another thread, and was told that it's not really happening. The USPSA list of top 20 in each division & class shows only a handful of PCC GMs & Ms. But I see how it could happen on a case by case basis. It's anecdotal. "I know a guy that knows a D shooter that made PCC GM." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I asked DNROI about this and was told that the no lower than one class below your highest classification does apply to PCC so your pistol division classifications could get bumped up due to PCC. I have also seen shooters' classification pages where this happened. I think it's wrong to link PCC to pistol classifications like this; especially when using Open HHFs for PCC which are way off for many classifiers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I hear all the time that people don't think the classifiers reflect a shooters ability well enough. Basically because they're all stand and shoot, while most stages at a match will be run and gun. I'm not saying I agree with this, but it is true most classifiers don't have any movement and primarily focus on gun handling and accuracy at speed. Now PCC enters the world, and you don't have to draw and that is a pretty dramatic change. The accuracy tests are for pistols not rifles making the actual shooting easier. I guess what I'm getting at is the classifiers seem even more lopsided when you do it with a rifle. I would guess movement around the stage will be more challenging with a rifle, and what will really separate the classes. So that shouldn't that be the skill tested the most? Does that make sense? Now I don't have a clue how you could fix that. It's probably easier to just deal with it as is, maybe bump some of the HHF's up. I'm okay with your classification between pistol and PCC remaining tied together. But, I'm already M with pistol, and if D class shooters are making M in PCC....Well I'm fine with being A in PCC if I ever give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 I suspect this mis-classification phenomenon is actually quite rare, and mainly happens with newbies who jump straight in with PCC. If folks feel they are indeed mis-classified, they can simply ask HQ to reduce their classification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 On 6/23/2017 at 10:55 AM, Edmooberry said: I think the classification system might cause some people to shy away from PCC. If they are just playing around in the division but end up hitting A or M, or even GM, they are going to have to figure out how to compete at the higher pistol level! If people are sufficiently douchey that the pretend to only compete against other people who haven't practiced enough to classify higher, and that makes them shy away from pcc, then I say 'meh'. The class system is a socialist crutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody6477 Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 I have a hard time believing that anyone shooting handguns no better than B or C is going to have the skills to classify M or GM with a PCC, since they're being classified against other PCC shooters. Maybe an occasional individual case, but seems likely to be a rare thing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaterHead Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 There are entirely different skill sets involved between a pistol and a rifle. That is pretty obvious. To combine the classification process in any way does nothing but a disservice to the sport. Rifles do not belong here. I'm sure it is fun, but rifles really need to go to a completly separate match. The experiment is a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanb Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 By what criteria is it a failure? It seems to be booming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 23 minutes ago, TaterHead said: There are entirely different skill sets involved between a pistol and a rifle. That is pretty obvious. To combine the classification process in any way does nothing but a disservice to the sport. Rifles do not belong here. I'm sure it is fun, but rifles really need to go to a completly separate match. The experiment is a failure. Whether you like it or not, I'm going to have to disagree. Around a half-dozen local guys dropped USPSA years ago ... but they're back now with 9mm rifles. I see some good friends around at matches again due to PCC. And many more of us are going to build/buy one soon. Why do I want to? I'm very comfortable operating pistols at a high level of stress and skill due to USPSA, but toss an AR at me and I'm a fumbling novice. PCC is a great way to change the way I'll be able to handle the 5.56 sitting in my safe someday, if I have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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