Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[MarkCO]

I had gotten a dual purpose revolver back when I was shooting IDPA, a 4" S&W 610 and I also have a 6 shot .357Mag and .41 Mag. I don't see me buying a 8 shot just to shoot USPA, but I did shoot a few matches with the 610 in 2012 and will again in 2013. For me, Revo is a different aninmal that the other divisions, I shoot them for fun only (or if I am out of 9mm or .40) of for a change of pace.

To me, shooting revo in Steel Challenge, IDPA etc. just feels a little more natural than in USPSA where they are less handicapped in compariosn to other platforms. Yeah, I know how divisions and scoring work, but I still look at my scores compared to the top dogs regardless of division. If I knew for a fact one of the good revo guys was going to shoot a local match with revo, I would be more inclined to take the wheelie out that day.

In response to Rob's comments, are you looking to bring over a few hundred ICORE shooters spread over the US and maybe get some of them to nationals which is a temporary fix, or are you looking to bring in new shooters to the Revo division in the hopes that some growth can be sustained? Those seem to be different goals with potentially different solutions.

[Flexmoney]

As much as I like the idea...other than cherry picking a match here and there...Steel Challenge (where open and iron sighted 8-shot Revolvers are allowed) shows us that folks don't tend to show up with their wheel guns. Right?

[sperman]

The match was not 6 shot neutral and as well as he shot it was impossible for him to overcome the standing reloads he was forced to do regardless of scoring major.

Based on this, I think anyone wanting to be competitive in revolver would have to leave their .45 in the safe and buy a 627.

[Neomet]

I think you would get more participation. I would be more inclined to shoot it if I knew I wasn't going to be forced to do standing reloads unless I needed to take an extra shot. For whatever reason I just don't find that fun. The downside to this is it will almost certainly make every 625 obsolete in the division because of the standing reloads which I am not sure will go over that well with current 625 owners. Wouldn't bother me as when I play I use a 686 which is not exactly competitive with the current rules.. Long story short... I would shoot more. Not a lot, but more.

[TGO]

If the match is

The match was not 6 shot neutral and as well as he shot it was impossible for him to overcome the standing reloads he was forced to do regardless of scoring major.

Based on this, I think anyone wanting to be competitive in revolver would have to leave their .45 in the safe and buy a 627.

Yes a match setup to be 8 shot neutral is gonna be tough for the 6 shot major guns. The Western States Revolver Challenge was just the Western States Single Stack Championship shot with revolvers. That's why the 8 shooters dominated. This just points out that a revolver specific match needs to be kept 6 round neutral. This doesn't mean you have 6 shots at every position. You just do not have 7,8 13, 14, 15 and 16 shot positions. Then theoretically the 6 shooters are equal. The course can be designed so both have to load. I still would like to have the 8 shooters have a chance, where right now there is no way a 6 shot minor is going to be competitive. You can try but history shows you will not win.

I hope we don't make it a 627 only class, but they oughta be competitive. As long as the COF designers keep both in mind we can use whatever you like.

In SS they keep the courses 8 round neutral, per the rules. even though the 10 shot minor's have some advantages. In events other than the Nationals, either can win. At the SS Nationals, minor never has won as few of us are willing to give up the greater loss of points to get the 2 extra rounds. The same may be the case with revolver, if the COF is well designed. I don't know. I just wanna get those ICORE shooters who have already shown they are willing to go to a big match, come to ours.

All this is for the future of course as this years match is set to be under the existing rules. I'm willing to bet there are going to be a lot of 625's in Barry This Year!!

[bdpaz]

...We routinely get 1-3 revolver shooters per match at the USPSA and Tuesday night steel matches...

...The Western States Revolver Challenge was a test to see what people were going to shoot if they were not required to use 6 shot Major...

...everyone else shot what they wanted...

...we had 40 or so shooters show up with little or no prior notice...

Even though I wasn't smart enough to avoid going sub minor at that match, I'm pretty sure these are important points.

And it may be selfish but it wouldn't bother me if a few top shooters had to buy new guns to be "competitive" if 8 shot revolvers were allowed. Allowing more gun options will bring in more recreational mid-pack shooters and that is what will grow the division.

[Bubber]

I have a question for Rob. How many of the top 10 shooters were shooting the 8 shot in this match? Richard Bretour did well to finish 3rd if most of the top 10 were shooting 8 shots. With all the competitor having equal skills the 8 shot will prevail. A higher skilled 6 shot shooter may be albe to beat a lesser skilled 8 shot shooter. But he, or she starts with a known disavantage. rdd

1 Leatham, Rob L684 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1275.8346 100.00%

2 Carmoney, Mike A23819 M Revolver Minor N N N N 1124.7931 88.16%

3 Brethour, Richard A59928 U Revolver Major N N N N 1034.8673 81.11%

4 Schmidt, Kyle L2820 U Revolver Minor N N Y N 1031.4066 80.84%

5 Stieber, Jason A44233 B Revolver Minor N N N N 1017.7030 79.77%

6 Schrock, Brian A76156 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1014.3741 79.51%

7 Pickett, Vic A16491 A Revolver Minor N N N N 967.1095 75.80%

8 Furbee, Dan A20570 B Revolver Minor N N N N Senior 965.5866 75.68%

[Brian Gonsalves]

I voted about the same, because currently I'm shooting revolvers in everything but Rimfire matches. In our area we have a some ICORE shooters that will shoot their 627's for USPSA in L10 minor once in a while. I know they would probably shoot more USPSA if the revolver division allowed 8 shots.

On the subject of the Western States Revolver Challenge / Western States Single Stack Championship, I only heard about the Revolver portion when the results were posted. I hope they do the same thing next year, as of right now I have 4 people committed to come down from Northern California to shoot both the Revolver and Single Stack matches.

[MrBorland]

My $0.02:

Under current rules, if you're gonna shoot USPSA revolver with any competitive interest, you've got few realistic options beyond a 5" 625, shooting major. Increasing equipment options might induce some additional folks to join, so I'm in favor of including 8-shot revolvers. Maybe even make revolver, like Production, minor-only, so those shooting moonclipped 6-shooter K-/L-frames could be competitive as well.

One can rationalize 'til the end of time how you're really only competing against others in your division, but the truth is people do care about their overall placing to some degree. This is one issue with revolver participation in IDPA, where the round count is even less than in USPSA. Add to that USPSA is commonly seen as IDPA's more evolved & speedy Big Brother, and it's little wonder few would consider using a revolver.

Revolvers remain in use - effective use - because they and their shooters evolved. Today's wheelgunners are doing things McGivern, Jordan, Bryce, etc didn't dream of, and competition is often the proving ground for innovation. Yet, unless rules change, USPSA won't be that proving ground for further evolution - kind of ironic, since USPSA is seen as the avant garde of action shooting. Once the rules are opened up, participation may acutely increase, but revolvercraft will begin evolving again, helping the revolver's image - and it's this boost in image that may lead to a larger boost in participation.

Tom

[Tom Freeman]

Single Stack has different capacities for Major and Minor, I dont know why Revo cant. If you make it minor only, it will be a 627 game for sure which is what the board tried to avoid when Revo was recognized as a division many moons ago.

I shoot my 627 at USPSA matches and the counting to 6 thing can make your head hurt after a while. If I could use my 8 shot revo as a Revo instead of a Production gun I would have a lot more fun. I know several ICORE shooters that feel that same way, many of them dont even own a 25/625...

Edited January 30, 2013 by Tom Freeman

[Racer377]

i don't have a revolver, never have, but have been inexplicably drawn toward buying one as of late. I'm not wealthy enough to buy different guns for different games, and I'd like the 1 wheel gun to be useful for ICORE, Steel, USPSA, and maybe sitting on the night stand. The 627 seems like it'd be great for all those roles, except for USPSA. That's the main thing holding me back from buying a wheelgun, really.

With course design as it is, I can see it making the 625 obsolete, though. Maybe that's part of it. It's painful just watching the revo guys have to standing reloads on the typical 4-target arrays found on so many COFs per 1.2.1.1, et seq. I don't know how they have the patience for it. That sort of thing would be a bigger discouragement/frustration to me than the overall finish as compared to the other divisions.

Would current revo guys quit if their 625s ended up with the capacity disadvantage but keeping a points advantage?

Or is the trend such that so few people coming into the game want to shoot revolvers that the division is beyond saving?

I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, but if it were allowed, I'd play in revo. I can't justify a 625 purchase, so under current rules I won't. Outside of USPSA I just don't have any use for a 6-shot 45. I've already got an 8-shot 45, with an awesome trigger and a really fast reloading procedure.

An 8-shot 357, on the other hand, I can justify for multiple uses.

Sure, people get USPSA specific open guns, but how many newbs go out and buy an open gun, or even a USPSA purpose built limited gun, as their entry point into the sport? (I'm sure we could proxy that from classification data) Compared to how many people take the gun they bought for home defense or carry to their first match?

[alecmc]

Now that I think about some of the stages I've done..... even at minor, i think 8 shooters would have a leg up over a 6 shot major.

Maybe a good compromise would be Revolver Open? I often thought about using my 8 shot with red dot in open division, but it'd be moot since I'm going up against guys with 28 round mags. Revolver open division would be great, anything above 6 shots with or without an optic. I'd really dig that.

And I realize alot of guys will say " well that's what ICORE is for " ... and that's fine and all, but not every state / club has ICORE matches, including mine - none around here. And for the guys that do ICORE, now you have another match to shoot your open revolver in.

Edited January 30, 2013 by alecmc

[cnote]

I think all options should be looked at. In todays / future political climate there may need to be a little more diversity otherwise some states will have few division choices left that meet local statutes....

this may be a realistic viewpoint if we want USPSA to continue to grow nationwide. All things in life are changing, and whether we want to accept the change is the challenge of life

(strictly speaking in terms of 8 shot minor)

Edited January 30, 2013 by cnote

[TGO]

I have a question for Rob. How many of the top 10 shooters were shooting the 8 shot in this match? Richard Bretour did well to finish 3rd if most of the top 10 were shooting 8 shots. With all the competitor having equal skills the 8 shot will prevail. A higher skilled 6 shot shooter may be albe to beat a lesser skilled 8 shot shooter. But he, or she starts with a known disavantage. rdd

1 Leatham, Rob L684 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1275.8346 100.00%

2 Carmoney, Mike A23819 M Revolver Minor N N N N 1124.7931 88.16%

3 Brethour, Richard A59928 U Revolver Major N N N N 1034.8673 81.11%

4 Schmidt, Kyle L2820 U Revolver Minor N N Y N 1031.4066 80.84%

5 Stieber, Jason A44233 B Revolver Minor N N N N 1017.7030 79.77%

6 Schrock, Brian A76156 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1014.3741 79.51%

7 Pickett, Vic A16491 A Revolver Minor N N N N 967.1095 75.80%

8 Furbee, Dan A20570 B Revolver Minor N N N N Senior 965.5866 75.68%

I believe all on that list shooting Minor were 8 shooters.

[TGO]

I don't think we wanna push for a new division, open revolver when we can only get 17 to the nationals. This 8 shot minor thing is just a modification to an existing division. it is going to be real hard to convince the board of USPSA directors that we need a new division until we prove we are gonna support what we have now.

This whole 6 shot neutral thing can be handled by making any revolver only matches comply with no round count at a single shooting position more than 6 unless it is greater than 8. simple. I'm not saying I would shoot major, but if the shots were hard enough and there were partial targets, I might find it difficult to select minor if I was making the same number of standing reloads as I would with major. I like points! (Said as Dax Shepard in "Idiocracy")

[dcloudy777]

I haven't even shot a USPSA match with a revolver yet (hopefully next month), but I have a thought... would allowing 8-shot minor in, but with speedloaders only (no moonclips) keep the 625s shooting major with clips competitive?

DanO

[leas327]

I voted that I would participate more. I am not saying I would turn into a hardcore revo guy but I would shoot 1or 2 matches a year. Which would be more than the zero I do now. I own a 627 and use it for steel occasionally and for pin matches all the time.

To me the division is obsolete because obsolete guns (5" 625/6" 25-2) are the best gun for the division. I don't want to pay a premium price for somebody's shot out 625 just to have the best gun for the division.

Julie G. borrowed a 625 from TGO to win a national title. She wanted to win a national title but didn't want to bother to track down her own revo.

[pskys2]

I don't think it would help the participation at all, you'd pick up no more than you would lose.

I would be ok with allowing 8 shot Revo's and making any shot fired over six a penalty, not a bump to open.

I'm sure it would be abused but the damage should be minimal, and eventually it would catch up to one.

But for those who really like to walk the edge of reliablilty could have an extra round or 2 for misfires.

[Jaxshooter]

Mike as you know ( you did the actions on them) I have numerous revolvers. I shoot both USPSA and ICORE . I have not been able to shoot my 625s at local matches recently due to arthritus in my hands. I can and do shoot my 627s at minor power factor at ICORE matches and have no problem with my hands. I am sure that I am not the only one that has this problem. I would shoot revolver 100 % of the time if I didn't hurt from doing it.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Jaxshooter

[toothguy]

I voted that I would participate more. I am not saying I would turn into a hardcore revo guy but I would shoot 1or 2 matches a year. Which would be more than the zero I do now. I own a 627 and use it for steel occasionally and for pin matches all the time.

To me the division is obsolete because obsolete guns (5" 625/6" 25-2) are the best gun for the division. I don't want to pay a premium price for somebody's shot out 625 just to have the best gun for the division.

Julie G. borrowed a 625 from TGO to win a national title. She wanted to win a national title but didn't want to bother to track down her own revo.

It was probably a friendship thing, since she represents Smith and Wesson I don't think she would have any trouble tracking down a gun.

[toothguy]

I don't think it would help the participation at all, you'd pick up no more than you would lose.

I would be ok with allowing 8 shot Revo's and making any shot fired over six a penalty, not a bump to open.

I'm sure it would be abused but the damage should be minimal, and eventually it would catch up to one.

But for those who really like to walk the edge of reliablilty could have an extra round or 2 for misfires.

What would really help Dave is if you could put on another excellent ICORE match.

[leas327]

...Julie G. borrowed a 625 from TGO to win a national title. She wanted to win a national title but didn't want to bother to track down her own revo.

It was probably a friendship thing, since she represents Smith and Wesson I don't think she would have any trouble tracking down a gun.

Does Smith have have a bunch of new 5 inch 625s sitting around? If they do I know one guy that would buy one.

Her blog has pics of "her" 627 for ICORE. If they allowed the 8 shots to be used without penalty do you think she would have borrowed the gun or shot what she had? Do think her performance would have been better or worse?

It most likely was just a friendship thing. But you could also look at it as even a factory shooter had to borrow a gun to shoot the division.

[Carmoney]

I have a question for Rob. How many of the top 10 shooters were shooting the 8 shot in this match? Richard Bretour did well to finish 3rd if most of the top 10 were shooting 8 shots. With all the competitor having equal skills the 8 shot will prevail. A higher skilled 6 shot shooter may be albe to beat a lesser skilled 8 shot shooter. But he, or she starts with a known disavantage. rdd

1 Leatham, Rob L684 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1275.8346 100.00%

2 Carmoney, Mike A23819 M Revolver Minor N N N N 1124.7931 88.16%

3 Brethour, Richard A59928 U Revolver Major N N N N 1034.8673 81.11%

4 Schmidt, Kyle L2820 U Revolver Minor N N Y N 1031.4066 80.84%

5 Stieber, Jason A44233 B Revolver Minor N N N N 1017.7030 79.77%

6 Schrock, Brian A76156 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1014.3741 79.51%

7 Pickett, Vic A16491 A Revolver Minor N N N N 967.1095 75.80%

8 Furbee, Dan A20570 B Revolver Minor N N N N Senior 965.5866 75.68%

I believe all on that list shooting Minor were 8 shooters.

The interesting thing to me is that Rich B. actually proved that the 6-major option could actually be viable. Ignore Rob's score for a second and look at the results again. Based on previous matches (both USPSA and ICORE), I believe that Rich and I shoot at roughly the same level--we don't have a lot of matches together to compare, but it appears that we're pretty close, OK? I shot my 8-shot 627 scored minor and shot a very good consistent match at Rio Salado on Friday, close to the top of my performance level. Rich was only 7% behind me with his 625. Now, I haven't talked to him and don't know how he felt his match went, but it's obvious that while I beat him with my 627, I didn't exactly blow him out of the water.

I truly wish I could go back and shoot the same match again with my 625, and have Breathour shoot it with an 8-shooter, and see how our scores would compare. I have a feeling the difference wouldn't be as much as everybody might think.

I have always felt that in good hands, 6-shot major is reasonably close to 8-shot minor. The 6-shot is going to have to be more creative with stage breakdown and reload more often, but those reloads are always going to be a little faster, on average. And yeah, I know 8 rounds is the magic number for avoiding those standing reloads, but minor scoring really sucks. Don't ever underestimate the difference that major scoring makes over a long match.

When SS Division was introduced, many people predicted that 10-shot 9mms and .38 Supers would forever dominate the division. Obviously, that turned out to be incorrect, and history has proven that the two options are at reasonable parity with each other at most general USPSA matches, with the edge generally going to the 8-shot major 1911s. I understand that it wouldn't be quite the same in Revo, but I don't think it would be correct at all to say that 625s would never be viable again.

I would like to see more non-sanctioned matches where we can test the theory, and I would be happy to participate on either side of the experiment!

[jhgtyre]

A side note: ICORE, which is THE Revolver sport right now, doesn't even bother to make a place for the 625. Limited is pretty heavily dominated by 627 shooters and there is no major/minor scoring so the 625 literally has no place in the sport of ICORE. Yeah, some people shoot them, and very well, but that nice fast reload isn't enough of a draw for many competitors so they buy 627's. Having those extra rounds is too much of a draw. So if ICORE isn't interested in promoting the use of the 625 why should USPSA care?

[jhgtyre]

I have a question for Rob. How many of the top 10 shooters were shooting the 8 shot in this match? Richard Bretour did well to finish 3rd if most of the top 10 were shooting 8 shots. With all the competitor having equal skills the 8 shot will prevail. A higher skilled 6 shot shooter may be albe to beat a lesser skilled 8 shot shooter. But he, or she starts with a known disavantage. rdd

1 Leatham, Rob L684 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1275.8346 100.00%

2 Carmoney, Mike A23819 M Revolver Minor N N N N 1124.7931 88.16%

3 Brethour, Richard A59928 U Revolver Major N N N N 1034.8673 81.11%

4 Schmidt, Kyle L2820 U Revolver Minor N N Y N 1031.4066 80.84%

5 Stieber, Jason A44233 B Revolver Minor N N N N 1017.7030 79.77%

6 Schrock, Brian A76156 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1014.3741 79.51%

7 Pickett, Vic A16491 A Revolver Minor N N N N 967.1095 75.80%

8 Furbee, Dan A20570 B Revolver Minor N N N N Senior 965.5866 75.68%

I believe all on that list shooting Minor were 8 shooters.

... Ignore Rob's score for a second and look at the results again...

Well if you do that some guy named Carmoney won!

You do make a good point about your score vs. Brethour's but for me, just the middle of the pack shooter, the big deal is having fun. My equipment choice isn't really going to make me win, and I doubt at this point that anything else will either, but I can do my best to have a good time and shooting the 8 shot on well designed stages was a blast.