Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?


Carmoney
 Share

Recommended Posts

We have bounced this topic off the wall here on the BE Forum for many years, but the discussion has been gaining some real traction lately. I think it's worth a fresh conversation.

The current USPSA equipment rules only accommodate 6-shot revolvers. Stated more accurately, the rules only allow 6 rounds to be fired between reloads. This has created a situation in which the moonclip-fed S&W 625s and 25-2s overwhelmingly dominate the division, due to their fast reloads and capability of making major power factor with relative ease.

Unfortunately, despite the efforts of many of us here, Revolver Division has not been flourishing at any level of USPSA lately. It has reached the point that at our last national championship, only 17 competitors showed up with their wheelguns. Quite frankly, it was an embarrassment, and I think most of us would agree that something needs to be done about it.

So here is the question: Should USPSA's leadership consider changing the rules to allow 8 rounds to be fired between reloads, at the penalty of minor scoring?

Would more people find it fun to play our game in Revolver Division with an 8-shooter, particularly at the lower to medium skill levels? Would such a rule change have the potential to reinvigorate the division and allow us to be a more viable and sustainable part of USPSA?

Edited by Carmoney
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 604
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

I really don't think any rule changes would help the division as its basically a dead division with the exception of a very few die hard shooters. All it would do is make the major shooters need to go to minor as that 2 rounds would be a pretty big advantage with the slower reloads. I don't think anything they do will bring it back from the dead

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before any decision making is done I want to see how this years Nationals shake out with the change to a dedicated match. I don't think that changing to allow 8 shooters would up the participation any in my state. I have seen one person state that the problem with the revolver division is revolvers. I guess there is some truth in that. Not many people are willing to put in the time to become proficient with a revolver.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a fairly new revolver shooter, but it's been all I've competed with since I've been hooked.

I'd be all for whatever can bring more guys into the division, alot of times I am typically the only revolver shooter for any uspsa / steel match at my local clubs, on a good day there might be 3 max. If 8 shot minor might sway some people in, I'm all for it. And I would like to use my 8 shot on occasion as well

Though, as of lately I have introduced some buddies and convinced them to join the dark side and buy some revolvers

Edited by alecmc
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't think any rule changes would help the division as its basically a dead division with the exception of a very few die hard shooters. All it would do is make the major shooters need to go to minor as that 2 rounds would be a pretty big advantage with the slower reloads. I don't think anything they do will bring it back from the dead

Guys, my initial instinct was to fire back at EkuJustice and tell him that his negative and non-constructive remarks are not particularly welcome in this discussion. But on second thought, it occurs to me that this is exactly what people tend to think when they see only one or two wheelguns at a local match, or maybe half a dozen at a sectional or area match, or a lousy 17 at nationals!

Can we really blame them for thinking that way, when we do look an awful lot like a "dead division" at the moment?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is strange to me seeing the introduction of a new Division, Single Stack/ Classic/1911 (call it as you prefer) with a different capacity for Major or Minor WHILE for years die hard REVO shooters asked the same to improve numbers of competing shooters, BUT we were told this was not fair to TRUE sixshooters!

I am surely a revoman, but I have got a 5 shot S&W342, a 7 shot S&W686P, a 8 shot S&W627, a 10 shot S&W 617; it seems to me revolvers are NOT only 6 shoot.

Let me say, I will use forever my beloved S&W646 40S&W Major loaded, a 6 shot, but that is MY choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I switched to shooting revolver a little over two years ago. When I started shooting revolver I was drawn to what the division already was, six shooters and the 625. I get that allowing eights shots might draw more shooters, but I don't think its an issue of the gun being six shot or eight shots, I just think revolvers in USPSA are different for people to shoot. At my club in Ohio when a person occassionally shows up at a match to try revolver its usually some type of six shot like a 38 special/357. Why not try leaving the division at 6 rounds, but making it minor. This would allow people to still use there 625's if they wanted, people with six shot 38 specials could compete, people with eights shots could still compete but using the six round rule, and it also might make it a little cheaper for buying bullets and components. Thats my two cents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This set of scores should prove relevant to this discussion: http://riopractical.com/text/wsssc-revo2013.txt

Not a huge turn out but not bad (better than the nationals Carmoney mentioned) and most people shot minor. This considering that the revo portion of the match was not heavily advertised and we shot the whole thing in one day with the staff of the Western States Single Stack Classic. If they do this match again next year I am sure the numbers will be higher (and hopefully we get more time to shoot the revo portion). I had fun shooting my 8 shot in the match and would do it again.

-ld

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just going to leave this here because I don't think my points were ever adequately answered.

First the disclaimer: I don't have a revolver and have only shot one once (a Ruger in .38 Special, about a decade ago). My first one will be a 617 that'll be Carmoney'd (if he'll accept my business) and have an optic slapped on it. That's probably some time off. Dunno where it'll go from there.

So, with that out there, if the point is to increase revolver participation, wouldn't considering what most people have (kind of like what was done to form Production and Singlestack Divisions) be paramount?

Wouldn't the majority of revolvers in the general population be of the ICORE Retro/Classic type, i.e. a non-moonclipped 6-shooter in .38 Special (or, at least, in .357 Magnum with the majority of rounds being put through them .38 Special)?

But is the general population a good source to draw from for Revolver Division, or is recruiting members from other disciplines or—within USPSA—other Divisions the only reasonable thing given the de facto 8-round arrays?

If the general population is a good source, does modifying the power factor required to make major make sense? Would making power factor somehow contingent on something like whether the revo uses moonclips or speedloaders work? I'm thinking that if you make the current major factor, you make major, but if you make the standard .38 Special factor (105, it appears) and use speedloaders, major, but if you use moonclips, minor. Could/would this alienate current USPSA revo shooters?

Or am I just a bottomfeeder intruding where I'm not welcome? wink.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tend to pick a division and stick with it for a year or two. I will admit that I am not looking forward to the year that I choose to shoot revolver. I do love shooting my wheel gun, but the thought of competing in a competition where 8 shot arrays are the rule with a gun that is limited to 6 shots makes me want to skip that year and shoot open again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shooting minor with an eight shot appels to me. But so does shooting a six shot minor. The only time I shoot major is when there is a mistake on the scoring. With the stage designs it will be a big advantage to shoot the 8 shot, but not so much that it cannot be overcame with a real good 6 shot shooter shooting against an ok 8 shot. Equipment will only get you so far. But where are the local matches going to draw the revo guys in? We have a good following in OKC, 6 to 10 revo guys, but nowhere else is that true. If ChrisC and I go to USSA we sometimes can draw out The other Roger from Arkansas to the match. ChrisC and I will attend the same matches most of the time. Hmmm? I wonder if that is not the reason I do not win the match most of the time... I voted I wuld shoot revolver about the same. But I shoot Revo almost exclusively. rdd

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not a revolver shooter but I am a MD for a local match and I ask this with that in mind.

The main objection I have heard seems to be the fact that there is only one maker and the market may not be large enough to encourage others to follow suit. That means that anyone who shows up with that particular gun will have an advantage over everyone else.

At our matches, revolvers only show up from time to time. The most are for our October match which is deliberately "revolver friendly". Wouldn't something like this tend to discourage people from shooting revolver if they felt obliged to buy a new revolver just to be even?

I have also heard it suggested that anything more than 6 rounds should be restricted to Open division.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I vote "about the same" but rarely shoot anyting but a revolver. I currently shoot a 6 shot at USPSA events and use an 8 shot for ICORE. With that in mind I'd use the 8 shot in USPSA. As a side note, allowing 8 shot revolvers in USPSA would make Federal large pistol primers easier to find...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I voted about the same, but I don't shoot much revolver USPSA. The last time I shot revolver it was the IPSC Nationals in Ohio. I used my model 10 minor with speed loaders. I shot my usual 65% of Jerry. :)

Is there any way to include 6 shot speed loader guns? It seems to have worked some what for IDPA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

as a member of uspsa and a revo shooter I have observed the following at our local matches. non revo shooters scoff at us we don't have master blaster 38 super open guns and that is waaay cool. However when i explain that it takes more brains to break down a stage when you only have 6 shots between reloads and that any mistake in that breakdown could result in a lost match some see the light and purchase revos and shoot them. most of the time they give up on them and then sell them because mastering a revo is so much harder than shooting a open gun on a stage and never having to reload.

Now on to ICORE. I am on the board of directors and have pretty much shot only a revo the last several years. You can even see the difference at the IRC between the 8 shot and 6 shot shooters. We started a classic division several years ago to get interest up in 6 shooters and comp III speed loaders (no moons). That has been he fastest growing div as of late because it brings in the IDPA shooters for one and it also makes for a harder shooting experience as opposed to a moon cliped gun.

Now on the the question of USPSA. I think that they should allow 6, 7 and 8 shot revo's in and allow them to shoot either minor or major. This actually would put the division on par with single stack and the rules in that division. I can only see that those rule would help both USPSA and ICORE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main objection I have heard seems to be the fact that there is only one maker and the market may not be large enough to encourage others to follow suit. That means that anyone who shows up with that particular gun will have an advantage over everyone else.

I think that revolver games are already a one gun/manufacturer division. For USPSA that is the S&W 625 and for ICORE it is the S&W 627. Sure there are a few 686, 646, 610 and an extremely small percentage of Rugers, but there is very little diversity at the top

Edited by No.343
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting to note is at RioSalado my home club, we have I believe more matches per month than anywhere in the world. We routinely get 1-3 revolver shooters per match at the USPSA and Tuesday night steel matches, but the monthly ICORE draws 40'ish? Currently the most active revolver group is ICORE by far. The concept of allowing 8 shot minor is to see if we can get some of those 8 shooters to the USPSA matches. The Western States Revolver Challenge was a test to see what people were going to shoot if they were not required to use 6 shot Major. With the exception of Rich Brethour who was shooting major as a control test, everyone else shot what they wanted. The match was not 6 shot neutral and as well as he shot it was impossible for him to overcome the standing reloads he was forced to do regardless of scoring major.

All that being said, we had 40 or so shooters show up with little or no prior notice, including many who usually shoot ICORE exclusively. Vic Pickett in particular replaced his normal optical sight on his 627-4 with the factory irons just to give it a try. BTW, they were only allowing 45 shooters into the revolver match as we were shooting on RO day. So technically we were full.

For sure we will find out this year if there is a strong USPSA contingent willing to support a stand alone Revolver National. Me thinks our little match here was a success and that we had out of staters take the time and effort to shoot says the 8 shot minor thing just may have some merit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just got my 625 2 weeks ago and plan to shoot it this season. I voted 'same', BUT i am really gonna be bummed if I have to go out and get and 8 shot now. :angry2: j/k nothing wrong with buying another gun. Ok what do you all recommend...so I can start looking now :surprise:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...