Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[Flexmoney]

Wouldn't 8-shot make the Revolver guys as dumb as the rest of us? At 6 rounds, they have to figure out smart ways to game the stage. With 8, they just reload whenever they move...like the bottom feeders.

[TGO]

I stand by my oft-repeated contention that moving from a division where only three or four guns are possibly competitive to a division where only a single gun is competitive is a negative, and that the addition of two more rounds fundamentally changes the revolver game when shooting USPSA stages. I invite anyone in my area that wants to shoot minor 8-shot to come to the Silver Creek match and shoot with me in revolver division. We can start generating data right then and there, and I'll talk Lee or Dave into tabulating the scores as Revolver and not Production. Our matches are usually 32-round burners, so it should be weighted as heavily towards the 8-shots as possible.

For that matter, I wonder if they would let me shoot through twice, once with a 625 and once with a 627. In the name of science, of course.

Glad to have Matt in this. I would be doing the twice through thing here if we weren't having 70-90 shooters showing up for our matches. I just don't wanna be there that long, I'm old after all!

Just for interest sake, I have considered shooting 6 minor, but have found out I can't count to 6 reliably. I just shoot the 8 at ICORE and Tuesday Night Steel and the 6 at IPSC.

Only thing I disagree with you on here is thinking there is more than one competitive gun in USPSA revolver division. we have a couple shooting 6 minor, but I do not think you can be truly, not just theoretically competitive with it.

BTW, I can easily design a match that would be USPSA legal and we would not choose 8 minor over 6 major. Thanks for joining in. I value your opinion as one of the super 17!

[TGO]

Wouldn't 8-shot make the Revolver guys as dumb as the rest of us? At 6 rounds, they have to figure out smart ways to game the stage. With 8, they just reload whenever they move...like the bottom feeders.

I think loading on the move and conserving rounds to avoid standing loads is also part of the game. I don't really see what the problem with that is?

Another point brought up in these discussions is the challenge of trying to beat a higher performance division with a lower one. I judge my SS scores with the overall match winners. I'm trying to get better so I'm chasing the furthest carrot! Revo shooters are doing that at every mixed match.

[bdpaz]

Rather than "discuss", I think the Revolver shooters of USPSA need to show USPSA that we want growth. The standalone Nationals with good attendance is one way (wish I could be there). Another might be to put a proposal before the Board on ways to encourage growth...

Okay, here is one idea..... Take a major match, and I think Sam Keen's Memphis Charity Challenge would be a great choice. Make a provisional rule change NOW for that match, say 7/8 shot minor. Advertise and promote it heavily, both by USPSA and by the revolver community Then after the match, review its impact. Then based on that impact, proceed. Either with a provisional rule change for all of USPSA or by returning to the drawing board.

This sounds like a good idea?

It is a good idea and it also needs to be implemented at the local level. After we saw approximately 30 local revo shooter at the Western States revo match compared to the three we get at monthly USPSA matches, I think we need to see how many will continue to shoot USPSA if 8 shot minor is allowed. I'm going to check with the Powers That Be at Rio and see if we can get revo shooters to sign up in Production and then, in addition to the official scores, publish outlaw revo results combining all the revo shooters - 6 and 8 shot.

(And for Rob's benefit - I'm known in real life as Brad Perkinson. )

Edited January 31, 2013 by bdpaz

[Bosshoss]

Wouldn't 8-shot make the Revolver guys as dumb as the rest of us? At 6 rounds, they have to figure out smart ways to game the stage. With 8, they just reload whenever they move...like the bottom feeders.

I think loading on the move and conserving rounds to avoid standing loads is also part of the game. I don't really see what the problem with that is?

Exactly Rob and sometimes taking targets out of sequence or long shots at steel will make a stage revolver friendly.

Example for the non revolver shooters reading this: A 32 round stage with start position in center of bay and 4 arrays of 4 targets 1 array at 10 oclock and 1 at 11 ocock 1 at 1 oclock and 1 at 2 oclock with walls blocking them partially. At start signal take a half step to right and stoot 1 target in 2 oclock array and then 1 target in 1 oclock array step to left until you can see 1 target in 11 oclock array and shoot that one you have just turned 3 arrays into 6 shot positions before ever moving to them, eliminating 3 standing reloads before you actually move to first shooting position.

I know all you revolver shooters knew this but just trying to help the new to revolver shooters.

Another point brought up in these discussions is the challenge of trying to beat a higher performance division with a lower one. I judge my SS scores with the overall match winners. I'm trying to get better so I'm chasing the furthest carrot! Revo shooters are doing that at every mixed match.

Exactly this.

BTW Rob my name is Paul Francis we met a couple of times in the mid 90's when I was shooting then and I was the Match Director at the 1997 Area 5 that you shot. The one where we had 8" of rain that week and it rained Thur.- Sat. and quit Sun. when you and the rest of the Super Squad shot

[cylindrically challenged]

I have shot my 625 in USPSA matches but found the constant standing reloads to be so frustrating that I sold the gun. I now only shoot my 627 in ICORE, Steel Challenge and NRA Action. I will not shoot USPSA with a 6 shot wheelgun. In my other disciplines my times and scores with the bottomfeeders are competitive. But in USPSA there's just no way to do that with a 6 shooter. I enjoy giving bottom feeders a run for their money in the other disciplines. Allowing 8 shooters in would definately increase my participation in USPSA. 8 shot arrays would be a welcome challenge to get through clean and then be able to load on the run. You could then develop a natural flow for the stage. USPSA with a 6 shooter just isn't fun.

[toothguy]

I have shot my 625 in USPSA matches but found the constant standing reloads to be so frustrating that I sold the gun. I now only shoot my 627 in ICORE, Steel Challenge and NRA Action. I will not shoot USPSA with a 6 shot wheelgun. In my other disciplines my times and scores with the bottomfeeders are competitive. But in USPSA there's just no way to do that with a 6 shooter. I enjoy giving bottom feeders a run for their money in the other disciplines. Allowing 8 shooters in would definately increase my participation in USPSA. 8 shot arrays would be a welcome challenge to get through clean and then be able to load on the run. You could then develop a natural flow for the stage. USPSA with a 6 shooter just isn't fun.

+1

[Bosshoss]

Just a thought here and an idea for discussion.

Open revolver class to everyone.

A shooter shooting a 6 shot gun with speedloaders would get 100% of his score

A shooter shooting a 6 shot gun with moonclips would get 90% of his score

A shooter shooting a 8 shot limited gun would get 70% of his score

A shooter shooting a OPEN revolver would get 60% of his score

I just threw the numbers out their for discussion and I realize that they will need adjusted like our current classifer system does every once in a while.

This would let anyone with a revolver find a home with a scoring penalty for equipment advantages.

As I said this is just for dicussion.

[bn115]

I dont normally contribute to discussions, so here goes.........

What drew me to revolver division was the focus on accuracy. You dont have rounds to waste. You have to hit it the first time, no spray and pray. A miss really matters!

Years ago before they made revolver division 6 shot only, I know guys that bought 8 round guns, only to feel alienated when the 6 shot only was established, and they never came back. I would hate to see that same thing happen again, only in reverse. For that reason, I could see revolver open (8 shot, minor,optics if you want etc) and revolver limited (6 shot, major, irons) being the bait that brings in the icore/steel challenge guys, yet keeps the current loyal followers.

Back to hibernating

[Bosshoss]

I have shot my 625 in USPSA matches but found the constant standing reloads to be so frustrating that I sold the gun. I now only shoot my 627 in ICORE, Steel Challenge and NRA Action. I will not shoot USPSA with a 6 shot wheelgun. In my other disciplines my times and scores with the bottomfeeders are competitive. But in USPSA there's just no way to do that with a 6 shooter. I enjoy giving bottom feeders a run for their money in the other disciplines. Allowing 8 shooters in would definately increase my participation in USPSA. 8 shot arrays would be a welcome challenge to get through clean and then be able to load on the run. You could then develop a natural flow for the stage. USPSA with a 6 shooter just isn't fun.

USPSA with a 6 shot IS fun IMO it's just not as easy as a bottom feeder. I find the challange and rewards so much greater shooting a 6 shot revolver in a 8 shot world. Just a difference of opinion.

When I'm approached at a match and asked about shooting a revolver against the autos the first thing I tell them is " Check your ego at the door" because this was a struggle for me at the start. Getting beat by a shooter that is a couple of classes below where you would be shooting an auto is tough to swallow. But when things start coming together it is SO MUCH fun you forget about who is beating you.

I always tell myself that after shooting my revolver that when I shoot a bottomfeeder I will be better than I was before because of my revolver shooting. There is some satisfaction(for me at least) knowing that not everyone at the match can do what I do.

[JFlowers]

The reason I proposed using Sam's Match is instead of 1 great, 1 good, and 2 fair shooters like you might have at a local match, you would have a wide spectrum of shooters and typically, close to 100 of them. Sure Jerry would win regardless, but you could look at the next 20 places and see a mix of great shooters with different gear and plenty of data to cut and parse.

[sbcman]

I think everyone is overlooking the segment of current revolver shooters, like myself, that just need some tiny bit of justification to buy a 627. Opening up an 8 Limited class would do it for me- I'M IN!

[diehli]

So, the idea is to entice ICORE shooters in to get the revolver numbers up?

[TGO]

So, the idea is to entice ICORE shooters in to get the revolver numbers up?

I think the idea is to get the activity up in revolver dividion. IRC shooters are a good group to entice, as are IDPA revolvers shooters. I think we have pretty much agreed the 8 round minor would make our game more appealing to ICORE. Bottom line; ICORE will come although who knows how many, if we allowed them to shoot all 8 rounds their guns carry without moving them out of revolver division.

IDPA is another story. They are more about minimalism and use what they deem to be more "practical" non game oriented equipment and courses of fire. I am neither here or there on this as they are all games, just different focus points.

The revo guys in IDPA are already shooting some of the same stuff as USPSA regarding guns but have a 4" barrel length limit. Plus their holsters and speedloader/moon clip holders and permitted quantities of those differs. Smith and Wesson dropped the 5" barreled of the 625 to a 4" because of IDPA's rules. Is it time to talk about getting them in now?

They will need more clip holders but that is relatively easy to take care of. If getting them out takes shorter stages on the average, I'm ok with some of that. I'm not alone in thinking 32 round stages should be fewer in number than medium or small stages in a proper match, but that is another issue.

Maybe Revo is bigger in IDPA BECAUSE there are no 32 round stages.

Point is, we want anyone who can to shoot. ICORE is just one group, but they may very well be the largest in terms of members, of organizations using revolvers.

[TGO]

Point I forgot, The stand alone Nationals this year is the most important thing to showcase revolvers as an important division. We are already ahead this year because of that. I'm really interested to see the results of that match this year!

[cheryl]

I have a 610 and am truly enjoying Revolver Division. I don't have an 8-shot revolver, so I will take my toys and go home.

Edited January 31, 2013 by cheryl

[Bosshoss]

So, the idea is to entice ICORE shooters in to get the revolver numbers up?

This might work OK in areas that have a lot of ICORE shooters but ICORE is thin to zero in some areas. Even at the local ICORE matches I shoot with 15 to 20 shooters the most 627's I have seen has been 4 or 5. Most the shooters shoot classic division(6 shot speedloader) or 625's in limited.

[diehli]

So, the idea is to entice ICORE shooters in to get the revolver numbers up?

I think the idea is to get the activity up in revolver dividion. IRC shooters are a good group to entice, as are IDPA revolvers shooters. I think we have pretty much agreed the 8 round minor would make our game more appealing to ICORE. Bottom line; ICORE will come although who knows how many, if we allowed them to shoot all 8 rounds their guns carry without moving them out of revolver division.

<snip>

Point is, we want anyone who can to shoot. ICORE is just one group, but they may very well be the largest in terms of members, of organizations using revolvers.

I think there's a question that needs to be asked prior to whether the 8-shot guns should be allowed in Revo Division: "where are we trying to draw shooters from?"

If it's Joe Average Competitor, then it's more than likely he's got a non-moonclipped 6-shooter in .38/.357 and he's not got a Division to play in with that gun. He probably shoots other Divisions or sports (IDPA, etc.) with semi-autos. Is that a group worth drawing shooters from? If so, do you really think he's going to invest over $1500 to not be at an equipment disadvantage? Shouldn't we look at accommodating his revolver?

What about Joe Average Gun Owner that has the same non-moonclipped 6-shooter in .38/.357. Is he a demographic that could be drawn to USPSA if we had a Division where his equipment could be competitive?

I guess my question is, isn't there a bigger pool of what IDPA calls SSRs out there to draw shooters from than there is a pool of 8-shooters? If so, why aren't we targeting them and instead targeting dedicated gamers who already have 8-shooters, seemingly to the detriment of those dedicated Revo shooters that don't have 8-shooters?

As Matt pointed out, the change would seem to make it a 1-gun Division, which would appear to be a step in the wrong direction, at least from where I'm sitting.

[toothguy]

Some of us don't see as well any more and optics, for open revolver, would really help.

[Dragon11]

I agree the greatest pool of shooters to draw from would be IDPA and ICORE classic division shooters, as well as the shooters who already shoot USPSA revolver division as is. Including six shot 38/357 shooters, whether it be moonclipped or speedloaders, would bring the most shooters to our game. This would also include people who own these style of revolvers who might have an interest in shooting the matches, but haven't done it yet.

Production division became a successful division when we catered to people with out of the box style guns, why not look at it the same way with revolver. This could be done if we made revolver division minor and left it at six shots only.

I think keeping our 625's competitive and in the game, drawing from different competitions styles to allow them to be competitive in our sport and bringing in shooters wanting to shoot the game with there current revolvers would be a huge step in the right direction. Looking at The IRC results shooters shooting classic scored competitively with other division shooters, this is proven just looking at Josh Lentz's score.

[MarkCO]

diehli, I totally agree with you and I know several USPSA/IDPA members that feel the same way. The few ICORE only shooters I know basically hate USPSA and would not shoot it no matter what got tweaked. I took my "IPSC" intro course using a 6 shot .357 with speedloaders because it is all I had and I did enjoy my few matches with the 610. However, if Revo goes to 8 shots, I'll probably sell the few hundred dollars of 610 competition equipment I collected over a few years so I could shoot revolver and not try it again.

[slflr]

I support allowing 8 shot revolvers to compete shooting minor.

[JFlowers]

What's wrong with 38/357?? I shot a 6" 6-Shot .357 N Frame for a year. Not that my skills are all that but the gun did better than I did! Major is easily made, Quality speedloaders (Comp III and SL Variant) are available.

[TGO]

Hey guys, no one is saying you have to shoot an 8 shot. If the match is designed correctly it isn't even proven which is better yet. This is as of now still hypothetical. In our match last week, designed for 8 round SS guns, the 8 shooter proved best.

You can already shoot any 6 shot 38/357. You can even load to major if you like. As far as getting IDPA guys to shoot USPSA, they may not really like the idea of carrying 7-10 extra moon clips or speedloaders if the reason they shoot IDPA in the first place is because they don't have to. In USPSA you will have to!

I'm just saying ICOREr's are more likely to shoot USPSA than IDPAr's! IDPA is playing gunfighter and like USPSA, ICORE is playing action/speed shooting. All have their place but that is the fundamental difference between the games. IDPA is Jiu Jitsu, lots of rules and limitations yet very skillful. USPSA is MMA, less rules, more weapons and techniques but more wide open. ICORE is Taekwondo fencing. Very controlled and very precise.

Currently, no change is proving to allow the division to dwindle, but maybe the stand alone match will be enough. In our area (2) it will not. Matter of fact, it occurs to me that all the 8 shooters now shooting our club matches are in L10. They aren't even trying to be in production or revolver.

Making a change always brings the danger of alienating those already involved. I guess if you are gonna quit and not play if they allow 8 shooters full use of the gun then that is a gamble some are willing to take. The threat of I'm gonna quit and sell all my toys seldom comes from someone truly committed to supporting the division.

Regardless of how all this shakes down, I'm gonna always try to shoot a stand alone revolver National.

Shooters who have tried revolver and not continued because they don't wanna shoot that division also are probably not going to come back and participate because of any change.

We will see what the participation is like at the local level after the Nationals. If it is stagnant or weakening, something should probably be done. If it does grow, and my guess it will, maybe they will just leave it alone. Who knows?

I'm just excited I finally get to shoot it at all. I do have a really nice pair of 625's!! I aint gonna sell them regardless of how many more times I don't shoot them....

[Dragon11]

I said in an earlier post I started shooting revolver exclusively a little over two years ago, since starting to shoot USPSA in 1992.. Since, the switch, there is no other division I want to shoot. Regardless of what happens with this division I will always shoot it, be it with my 625's or my 627, or whatever comes along. As a group, in my opinion, there is no other division of shooters that are more enjoyable to shoot with and are more passionate about what they do then the revo clan. I'm glad for this discussion and the ideas. Having said my opinion, whatever decision is made for the division I am in.

Ed Savard