Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[sperman]

Just to play devil's advocate, why should USPSA care? When given the choice of shooting a revolver or a bottom feeder at the nationals, 17 people (out of almost 450) chose to shoot revolver.

[Neomet]

Mike, good point about actually getting something empirical instead of (like I did), just assume the standing reload makes 6 major dead in the water compared to 8 minor. Remember also, one extra shot at an 8 shot array means you are probably doing a standing reload anyway.

[Bosshoss]

This is a interesting poll. A year ago I would have answered differently than I would now. I have a 627 that I shoot in steel and ICORE so it wouldn’t require me buying a new gun. A year ago when I started shooting revolver class exclusively I thought I would love to shoot the 627 and not have to do standing reloads, etc.

After a few matches something happened, and I feel that lots of shooters that try revolver class don’t get to the point that they feel this. I started looking at the stages from a different perspective. I wasn’t shooting against anyone but the course designer and I broke the stages down to where I did very few standing reloads and it became much more fun. I would walk through a stage with other shooters and listen to a couple of limited shooters with 20 round magazines trying to figure out where the best place to do their 1 reload and think “are you kidding me” as I have to do 4 or 5 to finish the stage. I HAVE to be better at breaking the stage down if I want to improve. It became so much more than a shooting match it took on the added appeal of a chess match.

I have been vocal at the local matches when the match director says sorry I didn’t design the stages to be revolver friendly, I always say DO NOT change anything for revolver shooters WE will figure it out on our own. I watch someone shooting production and shooting 8 and reloading on the move shooting 8 and repeat until course is done, and I think where is the challenge in that.

Part of the skill set to shooting revolver is breaking the stages down and the last thing I want to see are Revolver neutral stages at revolver matches. I enjoy ICORE but the stage’s are not as challenging(to me) in breaking them down as USPSA.

I have talked to other local revolver shooters and only a small percentage have 627’s so while it might draw in a few more 8 shooters it may well drive away some of the 6 shot guns.

6 Major or 8 Minor? I don’t know how much if any difference it will make but I’m leaning to keeping it the way it is now.

Everyone keeps saying we only had 17 shooters at the nationals last year. I think some of that is due to it being run at the same time as the other divisions. The shooters could only shoot one division and people like Rob stuck to his specialty and now he is signed up for the Revolver nationals this year as our almost 90(by last count) other shooters. A stand alone Nationals appears to have been a partial answer.

Revolver division is the toughest one and the most work, it’s not for everyone but it is also the most satisfying division to shoot and when a stage comes together it has it’s own rewards.

I know we keep saying that we are not shooting against the bottom feeders and only other revolvers but I confess I’m trying to beat the auto shooters as well.

[No.343]

This is a interesting poll. A year ago I would have answered differently than I would now. I have a 627 that I shoot in steel and ICORE so it wouldn’t require me buying a new gun. A year ago when I started shooting revolver class exclusively I thought I would love to shoot the 627 and not have to do standing reloads, etc.

After a few matches something happened, and I feel that lots of shooters that try revolver class don’t get to the point that they feel this. I started looking at the stages from a different perspective. I wasn’t shooting against anyone but the course designer and I broke the stages down to where I did very few standing reloads and it became much more fun. I would walk through a stage with other shooters and listen to a couple of limited shooters with 20 round magazines trying to figure out where the best place to do their 1 reload and think “are you kidding me” as I have to do 4 or 5 to finish the stage. I HAVE to be better at breaking the stage down if I want to improve. It became so much more than a shooting match it took on the added appeal of a chess match.

I have been vocal at the local matches when the match director says sorry I didn’t design the stages to be revolver friendly, I always say DO NOT change anything for revolver shooters WE will figure it out on our own. I watch someone shooting production and shooting 8 and reloading on the move shooting 8 and repeat until course is done, and I think where is the challenge in that.

Part of the skill set to shooting revolver is breaking the stages down and the last thing I want to see are Revolver neutral stages at revolver matches. I enjoy ICORE but the stage’s are not as challenging(to me) in breaking them down as USPSA.

I have talked to other local revolver shooters and only a small percentage have 627’s so while it might draw in a few more 8 shooters it may well drive away some of the 6 shot guns.

6 Major or 8 Minor? I don’t know how much if any difference it will make but I’m leaning to keeping it the way it is now.

Everyone keeps saying we only had 17 shooters at the nationals last year. I think some of that is due to it being run at the same time as the other divisions. The shooters could only shoot one division and people like Rob stuck to his specialty and now he is signed up for the Revolver nationals this year as our almost 90(by last count) other shooters. A stand alone Nationals appears to have been a partial answer.

Revolver division is the toughest one and the most work, it’s not for everyone but it is also the most satisfying division to shoot and when a stage comes together it has it’s own rewards.

I know we keep saying that we are not shooting against the bottom feeders and only other revolvers but I confess I’m trying to beat the auto shooters as well.

Well said, sir. I agree 100%.

[JohnRodriguez]

If I can figure out how to upload some video's, i have some of Rob shooting. This was a tuff match with a 6 shot, since a lot of the arrays were 3 paper and 1 steel. ( 7 shots) and you basicly eat 3 - 6 seconds total in stading reloads on a few of the stages. Next year is we get to shoot it again for the WSSC, i will be shooting it with one of my 8 shots.

[TGO]

I hate these forums when real names are not used. I would like to know who is saying what! Maybe why I do not frequent them...

Anyway, as a closet revolver lover I would like to shoot the Nationals and want it to matter. Having 17 shooters at a National is a sad testament to something. What, I am not sure, maybe that the system is broken. Obviously having a stand alone Nationals is the right thing to do, if having more participation is the goal. I suppose the best shooters in their favorite divisions are in attendance regardless but we can't even have class awards with last years turnout. I recognize that 500 shooters at the Nationals may not change who won. Matter of a fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. Plenty of good shooters do not attend major matches, the best though almost always do. So in my opinion, keeping it the way it is will indeed give us a great champion, but not cause growth. We need growth to sustain any division for the future. All of them.

I know I am an outsider, being a bottom feeder, but I'm very excited about the next Revolver Nationals. I'm fine with shooting a 625. Hell, Julie already broke it in for me.

I can only base my opinions on my experience. There are a lot more shooters at the IRC and IDPA Nationals than the USPSA Revolver Nationals. I'd love for them to all want to get together and have it out! Wouldn't that be a great match, see who's Kung Fu is the best?

[Carmoney]

As an interesting historical reference, check out this BE Forum thread from 2005, starting at post #31: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29440&hl=8&st=25

Obviously, this is not a new discussion! :-)

[T3P_Guy]

I like the idea of 8 shot minor and would sure support it.

One thing that bothers me though is the comparison to Single Stack and how the major 8 is still king. I sure don't feel that it would still rule the roost if the rules were changed to allow 10 shots per position instead of 8...

---Bruce Schmidt

[TGO]

I like the idea of 8 shot minor and would sure support it.

One thing that bothers me though is the comparison to Single Stack and how the major 8 is still king. I sure don't feel that it would still rule the roost if the rules were changed to allow 10 shots per position instead of 8...

---Bruce Schmidt

I agree! Thats's why SS is kept 8 shot Neutral and revolver should be 6 shot, whether or not 8 shooters are allowed. I think that would allow more options and make both choices viable options. Remember, you don;t have to have all 6 shot positions to be 6 shot neutral.

[The Antichrome]

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

[Carmoney]

... Ignore Rob's score for a second and look at the results again...

Well if you do that some guy named Carmoney won!

You do make a good point about your score vs. Brethour's but for me, just the middle of the pack shooter, the big deal is having fun. My equipment choice isn't really going to make me win, and I doubt at this point that anything else will either, but I can do my best to have a good time and shooting the 8 shot on well designed stages was a blast.

Dang Larry, you figured out my plan!

But you're right--shooting USPSA matches with an 8-shot revolver is really fun. Seriously fun! It feels like you're shooting the match so much more smoothly, more like it was designed to be shot, and not constantly having to fight to get through the stages with only six rounds between moonclips. Maybe I'm getting old and soft, but lately shooting my 625 has felt like work. Getting to run my 8-shot 27-7 at the Western States match was a tremendous breath of fresh air. I really truly enjoyed it, and that was the main reason I started this thread!

[Neomet]

The more I read and think about this the more I think allowing 8 round minor will increase participation at the club level if for no other reason than the ICORE guys shooting it. I would consider shooting revo more, probably with a 627, IF there were more than 2 or 3 shooters in the division. Say what you will about competing against ourselves or to compare scores to Production/SS shooters, I have little desire to shoot in a division of 3. Never will. To me, the more people you have shooting the more likely others are to shoot it. Otherwise the "Dead Division" becomes self perpetuating. Rob, when a couple of you guys started shooting revo at our local matches it fired up my interest in shooting the division. I imagine I am not the only one.

BTW Rob, its Rick Korzep from Rio. Now you know at least one of us here. Ha!

[jester121]

I got classified in Production last year and then switched to revolver to be different. Momma always said I was different. Shot it all year and love it, I'm committed to it for the long run. (Truth be told, I'm getting classified and practicing with a 1911 for the 2-fer-1 Nationals in Barry this year, but that's just economics, plus I got to buy another gun).

I voted #3, not much difference, before I really understood the thread. The numbers may be skewed from others who did this too. I support the idea of 8-shot minor revolver options for the following reason --

With any other centerfire gun, we tell people "bring what you got, you can shoot it in USPSA, we'll find a division for you." It might be silly, but your friend could bring his Hi Point or granddad's Hi Power or a Glock 26, and he'd have a fun day. Hell, we've even seen the video of the guy blowing pasters off the targets with a 5-shot S&W 500 magnum in revolver mega-major.

But if your friend says "Can I shoot revolver with my 627?" we have to say no, or more specifically, "if you screw up and shoot a 7th shot you get bumped to the race gun division and finish DFL". Having an 8 shot gun and remembering to shoot 6 isn't fun; it's tough enough explaining to people that they can only load 10 in their new Glock 17 for production division. I guess they could enter Production with the 627 but that's tough to swallow too.

The sub minor factory .38 special ammo is a potential concern I have, if we're focused on bringing in new shooters. I appreciate the ICORE policy where they auto-approve a list of factory loads regardless of how they chrono. Asking someone to get set up to reload .38 special just to compete would certainly be a barrier to entry, but then how do is this enforced to prevent gamers from cheating and loading up even lighter loads and shoving them in factory boxes? No easy solutions...

Rob, I'm John Meredith from Illinois, and I'll see you and SS and Revo Nationals in Barry, and hope to have a chance to meet you.

[TGO]

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

The fact that they do not is because it would be virtually impossible to be competitive in USPSA or IDPA. Which is why if they want to shoot Production, they enter with a more suitable, division legal gun. Only Miculek should consider doing that, and even he would choose something else. Apples and oranges. It's not steel challenge or Bianchi we are talking about. Revo shooters like to do things the hard way but they aren't crazy!! Are you Mike?

A 10 shot semi auto with trigger moving .250 in. or less and a pull weight as little as 2 lbs that is twice as fast and easy to reload is just easier to shoot. We are trying to help the division, how it stacks up against others is less important.

BTW, it's pretty awesome that there so much interest in this issue. Makes me feel there will be a long future for the children of the wheel. Thanks for everyones input, regardless of which side you may be on. I hope Strader gets to read some of this.

[Ty Hamby]

JM2C

First, Rob, we have not met yet but my name is Ty. My login name and me are one in the same.

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

Not entirely accurate. I own 5) eight shot revolvers. Not a single one is production legal. There are many reasons 8 shot revolvers are not beating down the production door.

Now for my two cents.

I shot bottom feeders virtually exclusively for years till an expert match bump in ESP last July. Prior to that my revolver experience was ICORE shooting (D class) over that previous 24 months. I mostly shot a 625 (minor) till I purchased a 627-4 last spring. While flying home last year from Washington State IDPA match I made the decision I would get serious about revolver and give it one full year uninterrupted A full year for me is 4 matches a month (USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, Rimfire) all with revolvers. My decision to not shoot a pistol for a year has resulted in several new revolvers. Each sport has its own go-to gun. Recently I have added USPSA to my monthly rotation. However instead of going out and getting a 5" 625 or 25-2, I decided to just shoot my 627 in L10 minor. This way all I would do is grab my entire ICORE rig and go play USPSA. Same equipment, same rules, (virtually) and all I had to do was speed up and not worry about figuring the scoring routine. I get to break down stages with my 627 in USPSA the same as Classic shooters do in ICORE.

After several matches like this, I decided to shoot my 4" IDPA 625 in revolver division last weekend. All went OK but Ill probably go back to L10 as I enjoy shooting my 627 more than my 625. One thing for sure, 165PF out of revolver is nothing like 165PF out of a 1911. An all day diet of revolver major shooting is no fun. I have decades of shooting left in me if I take care of my wrists and forearms. If they allowed 8 shot revolvers in revolver division that would be my new home. One added benefit for me would be it would also stop the peanut gallery from constantly reminding me that I shot more than 6 times and I'm going to open.

I started shooting ICORE because I wanted to shoot more. I have now converted my current life over to revolver because I am enjoying it tremendously. USPSA for me is an opportunity to shoot more when Im not shooting those other sports. In a couple of weeks My wife and I are traveling 3000 miles to shoot the Indoor Nationals. Ill be shooting a revolver. This year there will be more than double the typical number of revolvers competing at this event. We may even see a match bump in revolver for the first time ever there. Is this a sign of things to come? Probably not. I am however intrigued by the number of revolver shooters popping up here in California. My wife has taken up shooting ICORE. We now shoot together each weekend.

Last Weekend at the all Classifier USPSA Match she shot L10 with her 27-7. I just landed a JM627, so there should be no doubt I have caught the wheel gun bug bad. I don't see myself competing with an autoloader anytime soon.

A place to shoot competitively in USPSA with ICORE equipment would encourage me to take USPSA seriously.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Ty Hamby

[JFlowers]

Rather than "discuss", I think the Revolver shooters of USPSA need to show USPSA that we want growth. The standalone Nationals with good attendance is one way (wish I could be there). Another might be to put a proposal before the Board on ways to encourage growth...

Okay, here is one idea..... Take a major match, and I think Sam Keen's Memphis Charity Challenge would be a great choice. Make a provisional rule change NOW for that match, say 7/8 shot minor. Advertise and promote it heavily, both by USPSA and by the revolver community Then after the match, review its impact. Then based on that impact, proceed. Either with a provisional rule change for all of USPSA or by returning to the drawing board.

[No.343]

We have bounced this topic off the wall here on the BE Forum for many years, but the discussion has been gaining some real traction lately. I think it's worth a fresh conversation.

Mike,

What do you mean the idea is "gaining some real traction lately"? We see this discussion about once a year or so, its usually brought up a newer revolver shooter, or at least someone who doesn't post on this forum often. Now we have you bringing up the point and TGO discussing it at length. Give us the scuttlebutt.

Thanks,

Javier Martinez

[COF]

I've been hankering for a 627 for a while but we don't have ICORE in the St Louis area (I'm trying to get something started) so I really wouldn't have anywhere to shoot it in competition. If USPSA allowed 8 shot revolvers, I'd buy one to shoot USPSA and ICORE. I'm getting close to the point where my age will start with a 6 and I'd like to try shooting something with minor power factor and still be somewhat competitive. I bought a 646 in 2003 and shot it at about a 140-145 PF and loved it. When IDPA changed the rule in 2005 that all moonclip revolvers had to shoot 165 PF it took the fun out of shooting that gun - think 165 PF in an N-frame 45 is bad, try it in an L-frame 40 shooting major!

I believe having the stand alone nationals this year for revolver will give a better idea on the level of interest but I don't think that's enough. I like the idea of creating a provisional rule for Sam's match to see what allowing 8-shooters would do.

Jerry Mosher

PS Rob, did you call your mother yet?

[twodownzero]

I voted "no" because we already have a place for 8 shot revolvers--in Production Division.

I am convinced that 8 shots in Revolver would make enough of a difference that it could eventually eliminate all of the Major shooters, and that is a situation I find unacceptable.

In Single Stack, the difference is between 8 and 10 shots, and on many stages, those extra 2 rounds are useless, which levels the playing field with the scoring distinction.

Not so with the distinction between 6 and 8.

Still, I don't claim to know what the difference will be when it comes to hit factor, which is what really matters.

Edited January 31, 2013 by twodownzero

[BadShot]

I think that this would be a great idea. Would there be anything stopping us from trying this at local matches? My one concern would be that this would start an equipment race of sorts. I'm sure everyone would be loading short colt brass, shortened .38 special brass, or whatever else we could dream up. Pretty soon shooting plain old .38 special ammo would no longer be competitive. Is this really a valid concern, I'm not sure?

Skip

[azczshooter]

Which way will grow more shooters. I believe the 8 shot will.

Many people especially a new shooter do not want to shoot 165pf out of a revo.

Many people can’t afford multiply guns. If I was just getting into it and 8 shot minor was legal in USPSA at least I can rationalize buying the 8 shot gun. I could then shoot ICORE, Steel Challenge, USPSA and all my local Steel Matches. With a 6 shot in major some of those other games are just no fun and harder to rationalize the 6 shot gun.

I would also like to say I am newer to USPSA and I would prefer to shoot revolver and I do have a 625 5 inch that’s been worked over by APEX but still when I look at the different arrays of targets at USPSA matches I got tell you it also doesn’t look like any fun to shot 6 shots with the amount of reloads you have to do. So I prefer to shoot the open gun I just bought even though I would rather shot my 8 shot revolver.

Dave Jones

Edited January 31, 2013 by azczshooter

[Matt Griffin]

I stand by my oft-repeated contention that moving from a division where only three or four guns are possibly competitive to a division where only a single gun is competitive is a negative, and that the addition of two more rounds fundamentally changes the revolver game when shooting USPSA stages. I invite anyone in my area that wants to shoot minor 8-shot to come to the Silver Creek match and shoot with me in revolver division. We can start generating data right then and there, and I'll talk Lee or Dave into tabulating the scores as Revolver and not Production. Our matches are usually 32-round burners, so it should be weighted as heavily towards the 8-shots as possible.

For that matter, I wonder if they would let me shoot through twice, once with a 625 and once with a 627. In the name of science, of course.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Matt Griffin

[paul788]

I'd like to see one of the following change: either the eight rounds from one position or the six shots before reloading. Allowing 8 rds and minor when most clubs use 4 target arrays is going to render the six shooters non competitive in anything other than Level 1. Also means one gun would work for USPSA, ICORE, and Steel. Might be enough to get me to switch from a K frame to a 627.

See all of you at the Nat.

Paul

[Bubber]

Carmoney, on average what is your percentage of points vs points available. On the sc stage at rio you were at 91.23 % not counting Penalties and 89.47% counting your penalties. Just getting a feel of the diference between Major and Minor that could be expected at your level. Thanx rdd

ETA I did not count the standards as I did not know how many points available. but that is an easy fix as I kept my spreadsheet.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Bubber

[TGO]

Rather than "discuss", I think the Revolver shooters of USPSA need to show USPSA that we want growth. The standalone Nationals with good attendance is one way (wish I could be there). Another might be to put a proposal before the Board on ways to encourage growth...

Okay, here is one idea..... Take a major match, and I think Sam Keen's Memphis Charity Challenge would be a great choice. Make a provisional rule change NOW for that match, say 7/8 shot minor. Advertise and promote it heavily, both by USPSA and by the revolver community Then after the match, review its impact. Then based on that impact, proceed. Either with a provisional rule change for all of USPSA or by returning to the drawing board.

This sounds like a good idea?