Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[sbcman]

So, the idea is to entice ICORE shooters in to get the revolver numbers up?

I think the idea is to get the activity up in revolver dividion. IRC shooters are a good group to entice, as are IDPA revolvers shooters. I think we have pretty much agreed the 8 round minor would make our game more appealing to ICORE. Bottom line; ICORE will come although who knows how many, if we allowed them to shoot all 8 rounds their guns carry without moving them out of revolver division.

IDPA is another story. They are more about minimalism and use what they deem to be more "practical" non game oriented equipment and courses of fire. I am neither here or there on this as they are all games, just different focus points.

The revo guys in IDPA are already shooting some of the same stuff as USPSA regarding guns but have a 4" barrel length limit. Plus their holsters and speedloader/moon clip holders and permitted quantities of those differs. Smith and Wesson dropped the 5" barreled of the 625 to a 4" because of IDPA's rules. Is it time to talk about getting them in now?

They will need more clip holders but that is relatively easy to take care of. If getting them out takes shorter stages on the average, I'm ok with some of that. I'm not alone in thinking 32 round stages should be fewer in number than medium or small stages in a proper match, but that is another issue.

Maybe Revo is bigger in IDPA BECAUSE there are no 32 round stages.

Point is, we want anyone who can to shoot. ICORE is just one group, but they may very well be the largest in terms of members, of organizations using revolvers.

I shoot revolver in IDPA almost exclusively. I enjoy it and have done OK. I've shot revolver in USPSA a little bit but wasn't really competitive at all. I then shot limited a little bit (local matches) and did alright while having a ball. I couldn't put together what was missing between revo games until a friend and fellow revolver shooter (bosshoss) told me that he loves to shoot revo in USPSA because he loves to figure out the puzzle of the course. More than anything else, I think that's what makes the difference between revo participation in IDPA and USPSA. For some of us, it is great fun running an IDPA course that will have at most 18 rounds (two reloads) and we can truly see where we stand in the field overall because all of us had to run it the same way. It becomes tiresome for some of us to run in USPSA on 32 round courses- and the club closest to me specializes in chalking every course with high round counts. Nothing against them, it's good stuff (if you're running limited- LOL). I'm just saying that within the ranks of those shooting revolvers, the "figure the puzzle out" guys aren't that plentiful.

That's actually why I would welcome a 8 limited revo class in USPSA. I can't tell you how many times I've started a course and saw 4 targets standing together (which means 1 standing reload). I think it would be great fun. I know it would draw guys like me.

[TGO]

Me too

I said in an earlier post I started shooting revolver exclusively a little over two years ago, since starting to shoot USPSA in 1992.. Since, the switch, there is no other division I want to shoot. Regardless of what happens with this division I will always shoot it, be it with my 625's or my 627, or whatever comes along. As a group, in my opinion, there is no other division of shooters that are more enjoyable to shoot with and are more passionate about what they do then the revo clan. I'm glad for this discussion and the ideas. Having said my opinion, whatever decision is made for the division I am in.

Ed Savard

Sounds right to me.

Lots of opinions are being expressed here and it is giving a pretty good picture of who we are.

We need to get Carmoney to figure out how many shooters are active nationwide in revolver division. I'm betting we are gonna have the largest percentage of active shooters of a division at a National at this years revolver Championship. Not sure I said that right...

[Carmoney]

We need to get Carmoney to figure out how many shooters are active nationwide in revolver division. I'm betting we are gonna have the largest percentage of active shooters of a division at a National at this years revolver Championship. Not sure I said that right...

USPSA used to have data on how many classifiers were shot in each division, etc., which might give us a decent idea of the number of active wheelgunners. I spooled around on the website for a few minutes and couldn't find it, though. Anybody know where to look?

I'll bet you're right about the highest proportion of active shooters competing at Nationals this year, compared to the other divisions.

Just having a stand-alone (OK, sorta stand-alone) Revolver Nationals is a big deal. Big. Deal.

[No.343]

I am for allowing the 8 shot revolvers and I will have to put my 625 up and shoot my 627. I have no doubts that the 627 will be superior to the 625 for two competitors of equal skills. I shot my 625 at last years IRC and I know that I could have saved myself several reloads if I had shot a 627. I think I counted 4 reloads. For me, that is a minimum of ten seconds. We all know that is several places in the final standings. I have to echo the opinions of several others that say that they enjoy solving the puzzle of minimizing standing reloads in a stage. In OKC we almost always collaborate in figuring out stages and get lots of chances to cuss and discuss strategy. That is one of the best parts of match.

There is one thing that no one is saying. A man should get to keep anything he earns and if he is man enough to shoot major power factor he should get scored major. Lets allow eight shot revolvers and score the power factor they earn.

[Nik Habicht]

Years ago before they made revolver division 6 shot only, I know guys that bought 8 round guns, only to feel alienated when the 6 shot only was established, and they never came back. I would hate to see that same thing happen again, only in reverse. For that reason, I could see revolver open (8 shot, minor,optics if you want etc) and revolver limited (6 shot, major, irons) being the bait that brings in the icore/steel challenge guys, yet keeps the current loyal followers.

From a past MD/Current SC standpoint I share that concern......

I have a 610 and am truly enjoying Revolver Division. I don't have an 8-shot revolver, so I will take my toys and go home.

I'd prefer that didn't happen -- not just you in particular, but because the comment is likely representative of some portion of revolver shooters.....

Point I forgot, The stand alone Nationals this year is the most important thing to showcase revolvers as an important division. We are already ahead this year because of that. I'm really interested to see the results of that match this year!

I'm really happy about trying that this year.

I think the idea is to get the activity up in revolver dividion. IRC shooters are a good group to entice, as are IDPA revolvers shooters. I think we have pretty much agreed the 8 round minor would make our game more appealing to ICORE. Bottom line; ICORE will come although who knows how many, if we allowed them to shoot all 8 rounds their guns carry without moving them out of revolver division.

IDPA is another story. They are more about minimalism and use what they deem to be more "practical" non game oriented equipment and courses of fire. I am neither here or there on this as they are all games, just different focus points.

The revo guys in IDPA are already shooting some of the same stuff as USPSA regarding guns but have a 4" barrel length limit. Plus their holsters and speedloader/moon clip holders and permitted quantities of those differs. Smith and Wesson dropped the 5" barreled of the 625 to a 4" because of IDPA's rules. Is it time to talk about getting them in now?

They will need more clip holders but that is relatively easy to take care of. If getting them out takes shorter stages on the average, I'm ok with some of that. I'm not alone in thinking 32 round stages should be fewer in number than medium or small stages in a proper match, but that is another issue.

Maybe Revo is bigger in IDPA BECAUSE there are no 32 round stages.

Point is, we want anyone who can to shoot. ICORE is just one group, but they may very well be the largest in terms of members, of organizations using revolvers.

This. I usually argue with Rob, or nitpick at his points -- growing Revolver Division would (hopefully) grow the sport as a whole. I'm in favor of that -- I've done a little work over the years to make that happen. We can't be terrified of change -- yes, revolver participation could go lower, if we screw this up, but not much lower. :P

If we're talking about changing the equipment rules, I'd propose that we do it provisionally -- much like how SingleStack came into being. Allow 8 shot minor revolvers for a couple of years, possibly with a provision that they can't officially win a class or division, and see what happens to both scores and participation, locally, nationally and at Area matches.....

Cheryl,

if this were a provisional trial -- for a fixed number of years -- would you want to leave as soon as it started, or only if it became a permanent reality? Or would it be somewhere in between, i.e. once you became convinced that a six-shooter couldn't be competitive, even at major power factor?

[Cd662]

Bosshoss - I think that is a terrible idea. Are you going to let Production shooters mount red dots in lieu of taking away some of their points? The division already allows plenty of people "without a home". Personally, I never heard of anyone saying "Gee whizz, I have an 8 shot revolver and I'd love to shoot the Revolver division and I love USPSA but that damn 6 shot rule just ruins it!" A lot of the logic like yours in this thread is talking about making other guns "competitive". While it's clear that a very small number of guns are generally seen as competitive for USPSA Revolver, trying to change the rules to be "all inclusive" seems equally disastrous. We fall back into the "lets make sub divisions" argument. Joe Schmo can shoot his 8 inch Model 29 with 44 magnum and HKS speedloaders, and Bobby Booby can shoot his 8 shot revolver if he's a good counter. Neither are practical, but if people want to do it, they will because they enjoy the game and want to increase their skills.

" Allow 8 shot minor revolvers for a couple of years, possibly with a provision that they can't officially win a class or division, and see what happens to both scores and participation, locally, nationally and at Area mtches..."

I have only competed in Area 7 clubs but I don't see a great profileration of these magical 8-shot closet revolver shooters chomping at the bit to get into it. I suppose this idea couldn't hurt if the sole purpose was to mess around with scores, but similarly, I assume someone talented could invent a calculation program and it could spit out the "what would have been" score anyway. If there WAS someone shooting an Area match and they were willing to shoot for no score, I suspect that individual would be a social shooter; conversely, I don't think anyone would do it outside of a Level I.

If we're trying to recruit from IDPA, a lot of those folks don't like USPSA. Going from a dictated and generally linear stage to one with a lot more shooting, moving, and thinking is not for everyone. Similarly, ICORE has more of a USPSA feel with its frestyle shooting but at least in my area, there already is a very thin ICORE population and many of those usual suspects are the ones shooting IDPA SSR, ESR, and USPSA Revo.

I am unfamiliar with USPSA history, as I have not been around the game that long. Is there any historical instance in action shooting disciplines in general where changing gear requirements has significantly changed the shooter participation for that division? All I can think of is increased participation with NRA Action Pistol's use of Production, but I could be wrong there since I don't know much about that.

[TGO]

I think the 8 shot thing is a simple move. That's going to be important. If we complicate this, nothing will happen. Make the provisional thing for one year and let the scores stand. If you don't, no one is going to try it. We only need one season to figure this out. If the powers that be were to institute this thing for this years nationals and the rest of the year, we will know in just a few months if it's going to work or a big mess. Since that probably can't get done, It will take a full season including a National for it to shake out.

I only see two real problems, ones that aren't emotionally backed.

1. The classifiers that favor the 8 rounders will get re written big time. Old Classifiers that are 8 rnds without a reload are gong to be shot much better.

2. COF designers are going to have to be sharp to not setup a big advantage for the 8 shooter. I don't see this as a real problem either way, but it will be a factor for those on the local level1 events.

I think it might be kinda cool to go to a match and not know which gun is "the best" for that COF. We have that with SS now and no one is complaining about the 10 shot minor?

I'd like to see the big dog revo shooters from all the organizations get together to have it out.

Interesting, interesting.....

[Joe4d]

I think people are missing the fact that ICORE 8 shot guys are not a separate mass of shooters. Most likely those 8 shot shooters ARE shooting USPSA, they are just shooting it with autoloaders. Having an 8 shot division isnt gonna attract this untapped mass of shooters. You'll just move the ones we have around. The reality is, revolvers just arnt practical for practical shooting. Only real way to boost match attendance is stand alone revolver matches. Like ICORE, or this years nationals. Obviously when offered the choice, by far, people choose autoloaders.

[John Z Sr]

My feeling would be no, as I do not have an 8 shot revo, just a bunch of 6 shot. If I had one, my view might be different.

[dwarren9]

Id like to try 6vs 8 at a local match just to see. Couldn't just look at the overalls if someone shoot a 8 in production

Edited February 1, 2013 by dwarren9

[cylindrically challenged]

_{Slightly off topic but something that would be really fun would be to allow 8 shot--unmodified--627's to be able to shoot major power factor in Production Division. That would be a blast. The revos probably wouldn't be competitive at the big matches but a good revo shooter could probably be competitive at the local club level.}

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I have shot revolver in every division except open. I started with revolvers in 1973. When I had 8 shot revolvers, i shot Limited, L10, and production. Having geared way back, I would welcome allowing more than 6 in Revolver. My moon clip 686 has both 6 and 7 shot cylinder. My plan this year was Revolver minor (all I shoot now is minor) and the 7 rounds would help over the 6.

Don't count me as a Nationals shooter as I will never be there but for local matches up to the A7, I plan on being back to revolver this year if my damn hands heal.

[springy]

Revo-8 Division and Revo-6 Division.

There, that was easy, now everybody's happy and everybody shoots.

[seanc]

I don't think it will matter.

I've shot my 627 in production and I get crushed. Even if the course design ends up with the prod shooters reloading at 8, a B class prod reload is going to be in the 1 sec range and a GM voodoo miculek/griffin/olhasso/wolfe revolver reload is going to be right at 2 secs or just under 2 secs.

The reload time cannot be overcome.

Extended that to 6 shot vs 8 shot. Surely if as Rob suggests course designs are set up as 6 shot neutral(eg...the 2012 IRC), a talented shooter(Josh) can overcome the advantage the 2 extra shots provides. If everyone does the same number of reloads then we are talking about a level playing field.

As a revolver shooter, I'd love to see more people in the division, but I don't think its likely through this path, though I am not opposed to it.

It just means my 625 which is currently being built will end up sitting in the safe and my 627 will be the gun to shoot....

which btw leads to the other point.

Really there is only 1 gun to shoot right? a 5" or longer 625, how many years has it been since smith even offered these as a new in the catalog?

This is a fairly rare item in and of itself. Make the division 8 shot, and the gun then becomes a 627, which is even more rare.

[paul788]

Speaking as the guy designing the stages at a local club I put the effort in to have stages that don't require standing reloads at every array. Most other MDs in the east GA/west SC area are not going to put that effort in to cater to a goup of revo shooters that won't exceed 6 in a match of 60 people. I expect that situation will be the same everwhere that doesn't have a roundgunner as MD. Given that, allowing 8 shots wil mean that the ones who want to win have to buy 627s. The others will either keep the six shooters and accept that they can't win or quit shooting Rev.

The above is my opinion. I would support allowing 8 shots on a one year provisional basis just to see what happens.

Paul Beck MD for Pinetucky Gun Club in Augusta, Ga

[pskys2]

SS and Production limit their rounds to either a "Traditional" amount or a low common denominator. In SS they did up it to 10 for minor, but a good standing reload is 1+ seconds half the time of a great Revo reload, and the rules were changed to make courses 8 rds or less from a position, limiting the advantage of the 10 rounds.

.

So limiting Revolver to 6 rounds fired fits into existing rules theory, with the majority of revolvers produced now being 6 or 7 shot, there's not many models that have 8 shot it is time to adjust. On giving this a more thought I think only giving a penalty for firing a shot over seven, but not counting the shot a miss, would make sense. It would probably only be caught at positions that had more than six shots presented where it would actually give an advantage. If you forget to do a reload and fire a 7th at a later position you most likely will be doing an extra standing reload. I know there would be instances where that would gain you an advantage, but that's one I don't consider. I'd also think to let .357 mags shoot major. You could let .38 specials do it maybe with a minimum bullet weight?

Since the majority of our courses are 2 shot per target a seventh shot wouldn't be much help, yea I know steel, and shouldn't be penalized. That extra round might give enough of an edge to make up for minor, 2 rounds 33% over a 6 shot definitely make it worth it.

As for National competitions if you included SS in with any other Nats format, I'd bet the attendance would fall apart. Face it, the Open and Limited Divisions are hipper due to round count and course options. Production is very popular due to availability/cost at the lower levels and that feeds into more participation, but the upper level competitors see a rich division and migrate to that.

While Revolvers are pretty cheap, even compared to a Production gun, they are a bit harder to handle. And they require a competitor to take Course Breakdown to a whole new level.

It looks as if the stand alone Revo Nats is at 90 and will hopefully max out. Maybe we should take the lesson of SS and thoughtfully adapt it to Revo.

Edited February 1, 2013 by pskys2

[pskys2]

...We routinely get 1-3 revolver shooters per match at the USPSA and Tuesday night steel matches...

...The Western States Revolver Challenge was a test to see what people were going to shoot if they were not required to use 6 shot Major...

...everyone else shot what they wanted...

...we had 40 or so shooters show up with little or no prior notice...

Even though I wasn't smart enough to avoid going sub minor at that match, I'm pretty sure these are important points.

And it may be selfish but it wouldn't bother me if a few top shooters had to buy new guns to be "competitive" if 8 shot revolvers were allowed. Allowing more gun options will bring in more recreational mid-pack shooters and that is what will grow the division.

Unfortunately those affected adversely would not be the top competitors but the rank and file.

[Flexmoney]

I have a 610 and am truly enjoying Revolver Division. I don't have an 8-shot revolver, so I will take my toys and go home.

Don't go anywhere yet. This is just talk at this point.

[pskys2]

This is a interesting poll. A year ago I would have answered differently than I would now. I have a 627 that I shoot in steel and ICORE so it wouldn’t require me buying a new gun. A year ago when I started shooting revolver class exclusively I thought I would love to shoot the 627 and not have to do standing reloads, etc.

After a few matches something happened, and I feel that lots of shooters that try revolver class don’t get to the point that they feel this. I started looking at the stages from a different perspective. I wasn’t shooting against anyone but the course designer and I broke the stages down to where I did very few standing reloads and it became much more fun. I would walk through a stage with other shooters and listen to a couple of limited shooters with 20 round magazines trying to figure out where the best place to do their 1 reload and think “are you kidding me” as I have to do 4 or 5 to finish the stage. I HAVE to be better at breaking the stage down if I want to improve. It became so much more than a shooting match it took on the added appeal of a chess match.

I have been vocal at the local matches when the match director says sorry I didn’t design the stages to be revolver friendly, I always say DO NOT change anything for revolver shooters WE will figure it out on our own. I watch someone shooting production and shooting 8 and reloading on the move shooting 8 and repeat until course is done, and I think where is the challenge in that.

Part of the skill set to shooting revolver is breaking the stages down and the last thing I want to see are Revolver neutral stages at revolver matches. I enjoy ICORE but the stage’s are not as challenging(to me) in breaking them down as USPSA.

I have talked to other local revolver shooters and only a small percentage have 627’s so while it might draw in a few more 8 shooters it may well drive away some of the 6 shot guns.

6 Major or 8 Minor? I don’t know how much if any difference it will make but I’m leaning to keeping it the way it is now.

Everyone keeps saying we only had 17 shooters at the nationals last year. I think some of that is due to it being run at the same time as the other divisions. The shooters could only shoot one division and people like Rob stuck to his specialty and now he is signed up for the Revolver nationals this year as our almost 90(by last count) other shooters. A stand alone Nationals appears to have been a partial answer.

Revolver division is the toughest one and the most work, it’s not for everyone but it is also the most satisfying division to shoot and when a stage comes together it has it’s own rewards.

I know we keep saying that we are not shooting against the bottom feeders and only other revolvers but I confess I’m trying to beat the auto shooters as well.

Perfectly said, I would hazard to say that most of the repeat Revo's feel exactly that way.

[pskys2]

I hate these forums when real names are not used. I would like to know who is saying what! Maybe why I do not frequent them...

Anyway, as a closet revolver lover I would like to shoot the Nationals and want it to matter. Having 17 shooters at a National is a sad testament to something. What, I am not sure, maybe that the system is broken. Obviously having a stand alone Nationals is the right thing to do, if having more participation is the goal. I suppose the best shooters in their favorite divisions are in attendance regardless but we can't even have class awards with last years turnout. I recognize that 500 shooters at the Nationals may not change who won. Matter of a fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. Plenty of good shooters do not attend major matches, the best though almost always do. So in my opinion, keeping it the way it is will indeed give us a great champion, but not cause growth. We need growth to sustain any division for the future. All of them.

I know I am an outsider, being a bottom feeder, but I'm very excited about the next Revolver Nationals. I'm fine with shooting a 625. Hell, Julie already broke it in for me.

I can only base my opinions on my experience. There are a lot more shooters at the IRC and IDPA Nationals than the USPSA Revolver Nationals. I'd love for them to all want to get together and have it out! Wouldn't that be a great match, see who's Kung Fu is the best?

Rob most of us do have our names in our profile, can't really say why we use our avatars but there are so many Dave Williams it gets confusing.

I'm looking forward to this year Revo Nats also, no way I'll place as high as in the past but just being among that many Revolver Competitors especially a lot of NOT the usual suspects and top quality competitors to boot will be worth it.

Seems I saw you win the Bianchi Cup with a Revolver and I'd almost bet you'll wear out that 625 before the Nationals!

[toothguy]

Dave, this discussion has me thinking about coming back to Millcreek to shoot revolver, maybe after the cup.

Tim Altenburg.

[JFlowers]

Pskys2 - You can make major in any caliber 9mm or larger in Revo. So 357 and 38 make major under the current rules. I shot my first year making major with 180gr bullets in 38 Spl cases. basically the same load as a Limited (.40) shooter. I have heard that there is an international shooter that makes major with a Vitha powder and heavy bullets in 38 Short cases.

Again, I think we need to come to a consensus and propose a course of action to USPSA. We have this discussion every couple of months but it does not move anywhere.

What is our goal? "Growth by bringing in Revo shooters from other sports"

What do we want to do? "Allow 7+ shot revolvers to shoot minor on a provisional basis at X match or Z period"

What do we hope to accomplish? "Gather sufficient data to determine the competitive impact of the provisional rule"

[pskys2]

My initial thought was I'd not like a change, but after finally going thru all of the posts, I would not stop due to the change. I'd probably keep shooting the 625 until I knew it wasn't competitive. And I've been looking for a reason for a new gun, plus I've always wanted and 8 shot .38 Super! Still have my data and dies from the early days.

Tim bite the bullet and join me in a road trip to Quincy for the Revo Nats, I'm heading up Saturday but not shooting the SS, free car fare. If you can scrounge up anyone else to share a room with I'll give them the same deal. Heck shoot minor with your .45 if needed. Though if you have a 625 set up for USPSA once the buzzer goes off I never notice the recoil difference. And the SS always seems to be a bit more accuracy leaning than pure speed. Your Bianchi training will come in great.

PS you don't need a slot for the Revo Nats it's all first come, first served.

[Carmoney]

I would like to see the BOD approve the 8-minor option on a provisional basis for a year. That would give us a great opportunity to see how it works out.

If that doesn't pan out, then the next best choice would be for a bunch of us to converge on a few key matches where we can get the concept approved, like we did at Rio Salado last weekend, and test the concept further.

I would really like the opportunity to prove to you guys that 6-major is not nearly as far off 8-minor as many of you seem to think.

[Carmoney]

What is our goal? "Growth by bringing in Revo shooters from other sports"

What do we want to do? "Allow 7+ shot revolvers to shoot minor on a provisional basis at X match or Z period"

What do we hope to accomplish? "Gather sufficient data to determine the competitive impact of the provisional rule"

Exactly. Very well put.