Wilkenstein Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 What does benos think about having a division that uses all of the production rules, but allows an optic? The weight allowances would obviously have to change along with changing the external modification rules a little. Lots of shooters have a hard time shooting irons because of eyesight, but do not have enough money to make the foray into open. Many of these same shooters also appreciate the simplicity and reliability of the production guns and the setups they use. And now that we are seeing true optics ready "production" guns and the acceptance of micro dots in the tactical/gun fighting community (on handguns) I think it's only a logical step. Perhaps we should be proactive instead of reactive. I understand that this may draw shooters away from production, and it would also introduce yet another division. What if we replaced L10 with this idea? I know it's a long-shot, but the idea just popped in to my head and will hopefully spark some discussion on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 We have that already. It's called "Open" division. Production may one day morph into a division that allows a simple, low-mounted optic (as is gaining in popularity in certain tactical circles), but this isn't a real-world game/sport. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daybreak Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) I just don't see enough people wanting a division like you described. It sounds an awful lot like regular open, just barely less expensive. And L10 will never disappear. There's too many Californians and other ridic states for it to go away. I would however like to see a Limited Minor ONLY division. I think a lot of people would be for that. Edited December 8, 2012 by daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullzeye Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I think it would be too much like open division already. Not enough interest I would gather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 No. Though something similar that I wish had made it into USPSA was IPSC's recently discontinued Modified division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Since you asked for opinions, I'll give one Dots should be relegated to Open. Now...Production with bigsticks? That sounds pretty groovy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Since you asked for opinions, I'll give one Dots should be relegated to Open. Now...Production with bigsticks? That sounds pretty groovy We already have that ...... it's called Open! You can shoot anything you like in Open. Revolvers, Single Stacks, Production guns with optics, Production guns with Big Sticks ..... anything you like! Just be sure to check that little box on your score-sheet that says Open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 ...acceptance of micro dots in the tactical/gun fighting community (on handguns) I think it's only a logical step... Ask IDPA to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Since you asked for opinions, I'll give one Dots should be relegated to Open. Now...Production with bigsticks? That sounds pretty groovy I wonder if anyone has ever suggested having production but with "normal" capacity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Production with "normal" capacity was the way IPSC went with Production. After a year or two, they changed the rules to a round count limit (15 to USPSA's 10) to stop the madness. Though to be fair some of that madness was weakly written rules (like the one that said you could not tune a factory mag but could an aftermarket). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfish Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I like the idea of a production optics division, but I dont like the idea of adding another division. When you go to local matches there are already 1 or 2 divisions that only have a couple people shooting them. I understand the reason for L10, but out here the only people that use that division are people that dont want to shoot a division with much competition in it so they can always win. I dont see adding another division and not seeing the same thing happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z40acp Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I know a few people that went to shooting open just because they had trouble seeing the sights. I also know of some that quit shooting because of this problem. I don't believe we should add any more divisions. I would like to see an experiment with allowing seniors to use a slide ride style optic. Maybe we could do that in L-10. Come up with reasonable size restrictions and all other rules stay the same. Production is just so popular and it was clear from a previous thread that most don't want it changed. Some might just start shooting L-10 in addition to their regular division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I agree we don't need any more divisions. An optic is the big thing that makes open open. They are able to shoot open with a slide mounted optic if they have trouble seein the sights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 My previous suggestion was to allow Super Seniors (in any class) to use a dot sight as most of us don't see as well as we once did, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 My previous suggestion was to allow Super Seniors (in any class) to use a dot sight as most of us don't see as well as we once did, Why? So you can be competitive despite the vision limitations? If so, how is that fair to the 64 year old with bad vision who isn't allowed to use a dot? How is that fair to the 54 year old with a bad back, who doesn't move so well? If it's about being competitive, I don't see how we fix that without affecting the other competitors in the division.... If being competitive has nothing to do with it, then slap a dot on the blaster of choice and register for open.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 My previous suggestion was to allow Super Seniors (in any class) to use a dot sight as most of us don't see as well as we once did, Sounds like quotas and affirmative action to me. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Sort of like the Super squad shooting together, instead of being spread out among the other shooters. I assume you mean that sort of affirmative action and quotas ??? I've always felt that wasn't a fair deal to all the other shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Sort of like the Super squad shooting together, instead of being spread out among the other shooters. I assume you mean that sort of affirmative action and quotas ??? I've always felt that wasn't a fair deal to all the other shooters. How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Ugh... If I only had an interest in shooting matches on a totally casual basis. I would just stick a dot on whatever I could afford and shoot Open. It will never ever fly to allow an Open gun to be used in Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z40acp Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Ugh... If I only had an interest in shooting matches on a totally casual basis. I would just stick a dot on whatever I could afford and shoot Open. It will never ever fly to allow an Open gun to be used in Production. Sarge, what about allowing a slide ride optic in L-10 for seniors as an experiment. Why did you start shooting open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 If you are not competitive, put a dot on whatever you want, get a few scores and then petition to have your class reduced. We have several super seniors who have switched divisions and had their classifications reduced as they aged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Sort of like the Super squad shooting together, instead of being spread out among the other shooters. This is done so the people that have the best ability to have the highest scores shoot under conditions as close to the same as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) Ugh... If I only had an interest in shooting matches on a totally casual basis. I would just stick a dot on whatever I could afford and shoot Open. It will never ever fly to allow an Open gun to be used in Production. Sarge, what about allowing a slide ride optic in L-10 for seniors as an experiment. Why did you start shooting open? What about the shooter who has bad eyes and has trouble with irons and is not a sr. That's the point if divisions is to have like equipment. The dot is the big advantage of open. I'd they can't see the sights there is open where they can add a dot. If they want to do it on the cheap they certainly can. Edited December 9, 2012 by EkuJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Ugh... If I only had an interest in shooting matches on a totally casual basis. I would just stick a dot on whatever I could afford and shoot Open. It will never ever fly to allow an Open gun to be used in Production. Sarge, what about allowing a slide ride optic in L-10 for seniors as an experiment. Why did you start shooting open? I started shooting Open because I could no longer focus on the front sight. If we start making exceptions for seniors, Which by the way, I will be in a few years, Then we will be headed for a seniors only competitions. Unlike Golf, there are not enough competitors, facilities, Staff, etc to put on separate matches for seniors only. And besides, even in a seniors only series you would still need separate, distinct, divisions. I bought an Open gun but I could just as easily have bought some prescription glasses and called it good. Prescription shooting glasses make the whole point of allowing optics in other divisions rather..... pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 If you wanted it to be allowed, then you'd have to also open it up to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that is 20 years old with coke bottle glasses (before anyone gets started, no offense meant towards anyone, glasses or not). No way can you allow someone to do it, and not allow another to because of their age. You want to shoot with an optic? Register for the match in open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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