Production optics

[Flexmoney]

I'd like a rocket strapped to my back so I can keep up with Nils. Maybe one rocket pod at 45 years old, two rocket pods at 55 years, 3 rocket pods at 65 years...?

[beltjones]

E. A good point has been made previously that it would benefit all the other shooters more if they were on the same squad as one of the top shooters/Super Squad members. I think this point has been established for a long time that shooting with someone better is a big help in improving your own shooting.

Skip a Major match ($) and take a class. Or, heck...just go to a match and watch the Super Squad. Which is what you'd be doing if you were on a squad with a top shooter anyway...but you'd get to see all of them.

Exactly.

Some people are trying to make a living in this sport, and if you want to shoot with them, maybe you ought to support them. Squadding with a top GM at a major is not an opportunity for a free lesson.

[Ben Stoeger]

I'd like a rocket strapped to my back so I can keep up with Nils. Maybe one rocket pod at 45 years old, two rocket pods at 55 years, 3 rocket pods at 65 years...?

This sounds reasonable. Fat guys should get an extra rocket as well.

[diehli]

Sweet!

[Neomet]

My previous suggestion was to allow Super Seniors (in any class) to use a dot sight as most of us don't see as well as we once did,

Why? So you can be competitive despite the vision limitations? If so, how is that fair to the 64 year old with bad vision who isn't allowed to use a dot? How is that fair to the 54 year old with a bad back, who doesn't move so well?

If it's about being competitive, I don't see how we fix that without affecting the other competitors in the division....

If being competitive has nothing to do with it, then slap a dot on the blaster of choice and register for open....

Amen. I'm closing in on 58, can't see the front sight like I used to and the knees won't let me move like I used to but if you start using a "Ladies tee" in any of the divisions I shoot I still see well enough to hobble over and kick you square in your junk. Have one set of rules and let me measure up to everyone there. However well I play the game is however well I play the game.

[38supPat]

I agree with letting seniors run an optic, but to keep things fair all reloads must come from their walker...

[Rick88]

Some of you guys are really disrespectful, remember you will also be older one day. I dont have my rule book handy right now but what age does senior and super senior start?

[Neomet]

55 senior 65 SS

[Rick88]

I'm very close to the baby boomer senior distiction but I can still move real fast for 10 seconds or so :-) maybe not so much in a couple of years.

[eric4069]

2. Production optics. This has already been talked about here, but as much as you may not want to admit it, these guns are part of the landscape now and are the logical evolution of the sighting system. We are at the beginning, but optical sights do have several huge advantages over iron sights. And not only for us old farts. If we are looking forward we need to accept this. We need an optical sighted division that makes more sense than open that uses these advances in technology. Several manufacturers are now offering out of the box, optics ready models that are otherwise the same as their most popular production models. And by production I mean models they regularly produce in large quantity and legal for production division.

I agree with this. Some day when my vision declines too much to see the sights I would want to try an optical sight division. However I don't want to shoot Open due to the blast, high operating pressures, and expense.

eric

[Chris iliff]

This will happen. There will be a production optics division.

Of course, that is, if USPSA wants to remain the premiere driving force and innovative organization within the firearms competition world that it always has been. If not, some other org will, or some upstart new org will.

It just makes too much sense and doesn't hurt, harm, detract, or negate a damn thing.

On the contrary, it brings in shooters, it keeps shooters shooting longer, it opens up the sport to shooters who carry optic sighted guns and otherwise have no place to compete. In fact, it is win, win, win, win.

I just can't think of one single reason not to do this that doesn't involve EMOTION, and quite frankly, that is some sad commentary.

[BritinUSA]

If one considers the founding principles of this sport then a division for an out-of-the-box handgun with a slide mounted optic seems perfectly reasonable.

If, next year we go back to splitting up Nationals then a split between normal-capacity guns vs low-capacity would allow two decent sized Nationals if a Prod-Optic division was paired with the existing Production division.

[Nimitz]

I said it earlier and I'll say it again ... This is a terrific idea ...leave every rule in the current division alone and just add the ability to have an optic on your gun

I love shooting my dot guns (open steel challenge and open rimfire) but one of the main reasons I don't shoot open USPSA is becuase I don't want to jump in to the whole major PF thing.

Try shooting a SC match in the open center fire division with someone who has their gun setup to shoot 9 minor or sub minor and you'll get a sense of how much fun a Production optics division would be. Not a perfect analogy since most of us who do this have taken advantage of open rules with comps, thumbrests, race holsters, etc but you get the idea ....

[ZackJones]

I think it's a great idea but one obstacle is the M&P CORE's aren't production legal yet .

[rvb]

I'm not personally a fan of a prod/optics, however I think I would support this.

Practical shooting is where the latest/greatest ideas and technologies that weren't even considered legitimate for "practical" use have been field proven. It's where dots where proven to be fast and reliability was shaken out. Now you can't hardly find carbines in military or LE w/o dots... and now that technology is improving/miniturizing to the point you are starting to see it show up on production defensive pistols. To ignore it is to loose any perception we still hold of being "leading edge" technology wise. Heck, open division has been stagnant technology wise for a long time... we can't call sideways scope mounts or fitting an extra bullet in a mag "revolutionary." We should be in front of the shooting technology curve, not trailing it.

The leadership needs to think out of the box a little to keep both the traditionalists happy, and at the same time allow the sport to be a leader in "practical" handgun technology. Defensive factory optics guns can't really run in Open division due to capacity, comps, major scoring, etc, hence my support for such a division.

I think adding this might call for a shake up. As an example: SS and Prod could merge into a true "production gun" division, with the proper melding of the rules. Keep it 8 major, 10 minor. I can hear the traditionalists now.. "it's like dogs and cats having babies!" But then you can add the production optics division which would mirror this new production division but with optics, all w/o watering down the sport w/ too many additional divisions (keep the same # of divisions vs adding a prod and a SS optics division).

If it starts to take off, uspsa could start to influence the industry... glock, tangfo, Springfield, Kimber, STI may want to compete w/ the m&p core in this new division, which may then trickle into LE interest, and in turn possibly meaning new folks becoming interested in the sport.

If we fall behind the industry tech curve, eventually we'll become a game of relic guns. One of the things we dont want to happen is drive off new shooters because their carry or duty gun cannot be competitive in the game, and eventually that will happen w/ production guns like the core.... If he shows up w/ his core and we tell him he's competing against $5k open guns w/ 170mm mags and comps and race holsters, he's likely to never come back.

-rvb

Edited May 23, 2014 by rvb

[motosapiens]

I don't think there is any reason to take a production optics division seriously until people start showing up and shooting those guns in open, where they are already legal. That would prove there is interest and people actually own those guns. Sure, I can hear people whine "but i won't do as well in open", well so what? If you're in the sport only because you hope some weekends no one good will show up and you can 'win' your division/class then you're doing it wrong anyway. Just enter Open, keep track of how you do, and try to improve in the overall and in against the open competitors that are close to you in the results. When you can point to multiple guys shooting production optic type guns at every local match, then it will be time to make some noise about adding more divisions.

[remoandiris]

I don't think there is any reason to take a production optics division seriously until people start showing up and shooting those guns in open, where they are already legal. That would prove there is interest and people actually own those guns. Sure, I can hear people whine "but i won't do as well in open", well so what?

Or we can just let IDPA lead the way. Yeah, that's it. USPSA should take the safe route...just sit back and wait.

[BritinUSA]

For all the reasons that rvb stated above. I think we should give it a try.

I'm going to email my AD and see if it can't be bought up before the BOD with a goal to seek input from the membership before any implementation.

[Nimitz]

Yeah, great idea to contact your AD .... I don't think waiting for folks to show up with 9mm minor open guns and shoot them in open would work. You can be competitive without being viable to win your division at a match. Why go shoot a division where you know before you pull the trigger for the first time you are at a disadvantage? I also don't buy the whole " I'm just here for fun" argument either .... This is a competition and to some degree everyone is competitive. Show me someone who has never looked at their score after a match and then I'll believe it.

[Chris iliff]

I don't think there is any reason to take a production optics division seriously until people start showing up and shooting those guns in open, where they are already legal. That would prove there is interest and people actually own those guns. Sure, I can hear people whine "but i won't do as well in open", well so what? If you're in the sport only because you hope some weekends no one good will show up and you can 'win' your division/class then you're doing it wrong anyway. Just enter Open, keep track of how you do, and try to improve in the overall and in against the open competitors that are close to you in the results. When you can point to multiple guys shooting production optic type guns at every local match, then it will be time to make some noise about adding more divisions.

I don't agree.

Which, is small potatoes because it sounds like we are both for it, although we would implement it differently.

I would start it as a provisional division. Same rules as Production, but with a slide mounted optic.

Actually, I think it would be even better if we also allowed SS to play in the new division also. So Production and SS with slide mounted optics. Follow capacity rules of Production and all modification rules of Production.

Waiting for people to show up, before starting the division, just doesn't make sense to me. It brings to mind the whole "Which came first the chicken or the egg" argument.

I much prefer...........

......the "If you build it they will come" mentality.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Chris iliff

[MarkCO]

If we had 3 or 4 divisions, I would be all for a Production Optics Division, at least as a provisional. And yes, I do think it will happen eventually.

If I were to set it up it would be factory capacity magazines and one optical device (light, laser, red dot) allowed. Everything else consistent with current production rules. Gun list would include any factory produced semi-auto pistol with 2000 units available to the general public, standard magazine capacity to not exceed 17 rounds, 9mm minimum caliber and a retail price under $1K. The $1K price limit could be reviewed annually and adjusted if needed.

It would give a place for a lot of actual carry/LEO weapon systems currently in use to participate. It would also create a place for the guys with aging eyes to be able to compete and stay out of Open.

With the new rules about complying with local capacity laws, it sure seems that L10 should go away to me. Open, Limited and Production are far and away the biggest divisions and I think a PO division would come in 4th in pretty short order.

[Avezorak]

Would you guys allow milled slides, either custom or something like the Zev, or dovetail mounts only?

[MarkCO]

Would you guys allow milled slides, either custom or something like the Zev, or dovetail mounts only?

That is a tough question IMHO. There are obviously frame mounts, dovetail mounts, and things like the CORE that come ready to mount an optic. If you want to keep it from being an equipment race, I think that aftermarket or gunsmith milled slides would have to be prohibited. You buy a Glock for $550 and then put a ZEV slide on it, you are over $1K. Obviously, there is demand and I have no doubt that the CORE style factory offering will show up on other platforms. A $1K price point has a lot of benefit and it is a restriction method that has been used with much success in motorsports.

It is about more than reducing capacity and eliminating comps IMHO. It is trying to keep a Divison at a reasonable level. Limited and Open certainly allow product develpment and equipment race benefits, but I don't think a PO Division should be 9 minor and comp delete and then have at it.

[technetium-99m]

I don't have an issue with the concept of it but I do not think its going to be a reasonably priced entry division for long. If it becomes a division you will start seeing purpose built guns. Add up the cost of a decent base gun, trigger work, an optic tough enough to live on the slide and withstand 20,000 plus rounds, and all the gunsmith time to melt that bad boy into the slide. I personally think you will end up spending stock Edge money on a PO gun.

And then we're back to people talking about being competitive. The concept is cool, implementation I think will be hard.

[Avezorak]

I like the idea. But I dont see the 1k price limit being easily enforceable. I dont know of many production guns that come in under that after hetting them ready to race.

I can see not allowing aftermarket slide like Zev or LW. But not allowing milled factory slides seems silly, when the CORE comes that way from factory.

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

I wouldnt exclude guns like the SP01 Shadow because the price exceeds a certain threshold. I know that I would want to use the same platform in Production and Production Optics.

I do agree with the statement that we not make this into Open minor sans comp.