Production optics

[alma]

With the new rules about complying with local capacity laws, it sure seems that L10 should go away to me. Open, Limited and Production are far and away the biggest divisions and I think a PO division would come in 4th in pretty short order.

I am sure this must be discussed elsewhere but I agree with this and think L10 is useless. The people who I usually see shooting L10 are doing so only because they want to compete in a smaller pool of shooters to try and get closer to the top of the results.

[BritinUSA]

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

This would work for me. I think the capacity restriction in Production needs to be looked at sometime in the future too.

[MarkCO]

I like the idea. But I dont see the 1k price limit being easily enforceable. I dont know of many production guns that come in under that after hetting them ready to race.

I can see not allowing aftermarket slide like Zev or LW. But not allowing milled factory slides seems silly, when the CORE comes that way from factory.

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

Why would it not be easy to enforce a $1K limit. The MSRP is under $1K, or it is not. Pretty simple, and the VAST majority of guns used in Production are under the price point.

The CORE is produced that way, and is less than $800 MSRP. I am not in favor of allowing aftermarket slides, or milling. You allow aftermarket milling...That would be hard to enforce. Going to pull slides and optics to make sure a little extra was not removed? Weigh them you say...a little extra out of the slide and tape weights in the bottom of the the mag to make up the difference. Don't think there are not people who try that in Production now.

[Gooldylocks]

I like the idea. But I dont see the 1k price limit being easily enforceable. I dont know of many production guns that come in under that after hetting them ready to race.

I can see not allowing aftermarket slide like Zev or LW. But not allowing milled factory slides seems silly, when the CORE comes that way from factory.

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

Why would it not be easy to enforce a $1K limit. The MSRP is under $1K, or it is not. Pretty simple, and the VAST majority of guns used in Production are under the price point.

The CORE is produced that way, and is less than $800 MSRP. I am not in favor of allowing aftermarket slides, or milling. You allow aftermarket milling...That would be hard to enforce. Going to pull slides and optics to make sure a little extra was not removed? Weigh them you say...a little extra out of the slide and tape weights in the bottom of the the mag to make up the difference. Don't think there are not people who try that in Production now.

I can see and understand both sides of this. Cause part of me wants to say no milling (to prevent people from trying to game the system like you are saying Mark) but at the same time there aren't any guns other than the CORE that is available currently pre-milled for a sight. Yes there are dovetail mounts available but they get the sight to ride much higher than being melted into the frame.

I just don't know which is more important, preventing gaming or making it possible for more people to participate....

[BritinUSA]

If it were stated that the modification to the slide is limited to the removal of only such material as was necessary to mount the sight then I think it would work, if any other material was removed it would be obvious unless it were internal and I'm not sure it would have any appreciable benefit.

[Nik Habicht]

If it were stated that the modification to the slide is limited to the removal of only such material as was necessary to mount the sight then I think it would work, if any other material was removed it would be obvious unless it were internal and I'm not sure it would have any appreciable benefit.

And Production rules allow for that for irons currently -- so the language could be tweaked to allow it for optics.....

[Avezorak]

I like the idea. But I dont see the 1k price limit being easily enforceable. I dont know of many production guns that come in under that after hetting them ready to race.

I can see not allowing aftermarket slide like Zev or LW. But not allowing milled factory slides seems silly, when the CORE comes that way from factory.

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

Why would it not be easy to enforce a $1K limit. The MSRP is under $1K, or it is not. Pretty simple, and the VAST majority of guns used in Production are under the price point.

The CORE is produced that way, and is less than $800 MSRP. I am not in favor of allowing aftermarket slides, or milling. You allow aftermarket milling...That would be hard to enforce. Going to pull slides and optics to make sure a little extra was not removed? Weigh them you say...a little extra out of the slide and tape weights in the bottom of the the mag to make up the difference. Don't think there are not people who try that in Production now.

Mark, I guess I wasnt thinking of it from a MSRP standpoint. That does make sense. Im not sure I agree with it, but I appreciate your point.

I cant see being able to take enough out from under the optic to make an appreciable difference. I do think more companies with offer a core-style cutout in the future, but I feel if you can shoot an M&P cutout from the factory, you should be able to mill an other platform that meets the criteria.

This division appeals to me in a way that open never has. I know I am slower with an optic than I am with irons right now. Having a place to play would be cool.

[alma]

Not that I like the idea but a minimum trigger pull weight might do more to equalize the field that a max MSRP would.

[MarkCO]

I will tell you, as a guy who plays with prototypes, fools around on a mill, etc. You open the door to milling slides, there are some significant benefits on some platforms that can be made and then covered up with the optic that no chrono-guy is ever going to find unless he takes off the optic.

Cutting dovetails for irons is a whole different animal.

[ctay]

I love this idea and really wish we could get it to happen. As to machining the slide to accept a dot, I don't think it would be fair if you didn't allow it. That would mean by in large this is only a division only avaliable to m&p core owners.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[Chris iliff]

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

This would work for me. I think the capacity restriction in Production needs to be looked at sometime in the future too.

Me too, in addition I see L10 as going away eventually. I'd love to see PO take it's spot.

I ain't sure about a money limit. I think it would be easy enough to allow milling for a slide mount and nothing more. It's easy enough already to remove a slide and check for additional milling. Yes, I guess extra milling could be hidden under the sight, but frankly, I ain't worried about that too much. My thinking on that is don't regulate what you can't regulate. Basically if you leave that alone the field self levels. What do we care if one does it, let them do it. At some point I don't believe an extra ounce is gonna be the difference, as with every division, the cream (gun type) will be ever evolving and will rise and fall as we learn what does and doesn't work.

[BritinUSA]

If it were stated that the modification to the slide is limited to the removal of only such material as was necessary to mount the sight then I think it would work, if any other material was removed it would be obvious unless it were internal and I'm not sure it would have any appreciable benefit.

And Production rules allow for that for irons currently -- so the language could be tweaked to allow it for optics.....

I forgot about that...

I sent an email off to my Area 2 AD asking for the BOD to reach out to the membership and get some feedback on this proposal. We'll see what happens...

I also suggested for next year that we have two Nationals instead of a combined event, one for normal capacity guns (Limited/Open) and a second Nationals for low-capacity guns (Production & L10 and perhaps a provisional Prod/Optics division).

[jabbermurph]

Not that I like the idea but a minimum trigger pull weight might do more to equalize the field that a max MSRP would.

I think that would be the best idea, especially if the division allows Single Stack (Like a 4# first pull minimum) and only allowing SA with SS guns. I brought this idea up a few months ago, and I know it has been raised a few more times previous.

I believe it would be a big step forward for USPSA. I also think all of the opposing arguments are VERY weak.

I know it might not be the best decision and I might ruin a perfectly good Production pistol, but I think I will be having a slide milled in the near future to start a beta run for the proposed division. I encourage all who are heavily in favor for this idea to join me. We could keep track of matches shot, equipment used, etc.

Someone said earlier "If you build it..." I say we take on the challenge.

Edited May 25, 2014 by jabbermurph

[alma]

Not that I like the idea but a minimum trigger pull weight might do more to equalize the field that a max MSRP would.

I think that would be the best idea, especially if the division allows Single Stack (Like a 4# first pull minimum) and only allowing SA with SS guns. I brought this idea up a few months ago, and I know it has been raised a few more times previous.

I believe it would be a big step forward for USPSA. I also think all of the opposing arguments are VERY weak.

I know it might not be the best decision and I might ruin a perfectly good Production pistol, but I think I will be having a slide milled in the near future to start a beta run for the proposed division. I encourage all who are heavily in favor for this idea to join me. We could keep track of matches shot, equipment used, etc.

Someone said earlier "If you build it..." I say we take on the challenge.

Just get a new slide for your current production gun. Might be able to use it for steel challenge open as well.

[BritinUSA]

The whole trigger weight thing is not an equalizer, precisely the opposite in fact.

For striker fired guns it will mean that EVERY shot will be at 4 lbs whereas for a gun with an external hammer, only the first shot is at 4 lb and every other shot will be lighter. Leave the triggers alone...

[alma]

The whole trigger weight thing is not an equalizer, precisely the opposite in fact.

For striker fired guns it will mean that EVERY shot will be at 4 lbs whereas for a gun with an external hammer, only the first shot is at 4 lb and every other shot will be lighter. Leave the triggers alone...

Yeah, I think it would have to be measured off of the SA or striker fired pull. Not the DA pull. I agree the DA pull only would be a huge advantage to the DA/SA guns.

3 lb or 3.5 lb SA or striker fired pull sounds reasonable to me

Edited May 25, 2014 by alma

[Avezorak]

I opposed trigger pull limits in Production and I will do so here. I dont like them, cant see any point to them. IMO all it does is add something else to have to check at Level 2&3 matches.

I will be emailing my AD with my thoughts and would be willing to commit to shooting this division next year if we can make it happen. I may even play in Open before that.

[mpolans]

Would you guys allow milled slides, either custom or something like the Zev, or dovetail mounts only?

That is a tough question IMHO. There are obviously frame mounts, dovetail mounts, and things like the CORE that come ready to mount an optic. If you want to keep it from being an equipment race, I think that aftermarket or gunsmith milled slides would have to be prohibited. You buy a Glock for $550 and then put a ZEV slide on it, you are over $1K. Obviously, there is demand and I have no doubt that the CORE style factory offering will show up on other platforms. A $1K price point has a lot of benefit and it is a restriction method that has been used with much success in motorsports.

It is about more than reducing capacity and eliminating comps IMHO. It is trying to keep a Divison at a reasonable level. Limited and Open certainly allow product develpment and equipment race benefits, but I don't think a PO Division should be 9 minor and comp delete and then have at it.

To keep it following practical principles, make it fit in a box. I'm not sure what size, but that can be worked out.

[fxdc]

WOW....

[ZackJones]

If anyone else writes sent your email to all AD's not just your local one. While you're at it send it to the USPSA president, Kim and NROI that let's more people know that it's something we'd like to see. I think I'll draft up an email and send it. It doesn't hurt to to ask.

[BritinUSA]

I sent mine to AD and NROI.

My Area2 rep already responded:

Will present it to the board and see where it goes. Keep in mind we are just starting the 3 year period for equipment changes so we would not be able to enact anything until the next rule book in 2017.

[bikerburgess]

I like the idea. But I dont see the 1k price limit being easily enforceable. I dont know of many production guns that come in under that after hetting them ready to race.

I can see not allowing aftermarket slide like Zev or LW. But not allowing milled factory slides seems silly, when the CORE comes that way from factory.

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

Why would it not be easy to enforce a $1K limit. The MSRP is under $1K, or it is not. Pretty simple, and the VAST majority of guns used in Production are under the price point.

Because the gun I bought this year with a separate of $999 is no longer legal next year because they raised the price $1. And if you then try to grandfather guns by year and model good luck keeping that straight

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[alma]

I like the idea. But I dont see the 1k price limit being easily enforceable. I dont know of many production guns that come in under that after hetting them ready to race.

I can see not allowing aftermarket slide like Zev or LW. But not allowing milled factory slides seems silly, when the CORE comes that way from factory.

Maybe allowing standard production rules, with the exception of allowing milling to allow the installation of optic and no more.

Why would it not be easy to enforce a $1K limit. The MSRP is under $1K, or it is not. Pretty simple, and the VAST majority of guns used in Production are under the price point.

Because the gun I bought this year with a separate of $999 is no longer legal next year because they raised the price $1. And if you then try to grandfather guns by year and model good luck keeping that straight

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It would seem strange to have your Production gun costing more than your Production Optics gun.

[gose]

With the new rules about complying with local capacity laws, it sure seems that L10 should go away to me. Open, Limited and Production are far and away the biggest divisions and I think a PO division would come in 4th in pretty short order.

I am sure this must be discussed elsewhere but I agree with this and think L10 is useless. The people who I usually see shooting L10 are doing so only because they want to compete in a smaller pool of shooters to try and get closer to the top of the results.

And we'll replace that with a division for people that are upset that they're handicapped in Open with their current setup and want to finish higher?

Makes sense

[Supermoto]

I am sure this must be discussed elsewhere but I agree with this and think L10 is useless. The people who I usually see shooting L10 are doing so only because they want to compete in a smaller pool of shooters to try and get closer to the top of the results.

There are more people shooting L10 (all the banned Hicap state) then there are people shooting production guns that have dots. So you want to kill a division that affects many and add a division that has zero shooters.

When was the last time anyone showed up to a match with a production gun with a dot?