Production optics

[motosapiens]

Waiting for people to show up, before starting the division, just doesn't make sense to me. It brings to mind the whole "Which came first the chicken or the egg" argument.

I much prefer...........

......the "If you build it they will come" mentality.

But the guns are already legal to shoot, so if people actually own them and really want to shoot with them, they can. I certainly see 3-gunners competing in uspsa matches and shooting open minor or limited minor. They are competing with their preferred platform even tho they are probably at a slight competitive disadvantage.

I don't even know anyone with a production optic gun. I'm not convinced there is more than a trivial number of them out there.

[MarkCO]

I have shot Open with a G34 and a slide mounted optic. Have shot Limited, scored minor with an M&P Pro. There are a lot more production guns with red dots than people may think. I have several friends that fit into the category of wanting a dot for vision issues, on a 9mm, who don't shoot any action matches because there is no division in IDPA or USPSA. We see some at Steel Challenge and there are quite a few 3Gunners that use them as well.

I don't ever plan to have an actual Open pistol that would be suitable for the division...just not worth it to me in several ways.

[motosapiens]

I have shot Open with a G34 and a slide mounted optic. Have shot Limited, scored minor with an M&P Pro. There are a lot more production guns with red dots than people may think. I have several friends that fit into the category of wanting a dot for vision issues, on a 9mm, who don't shoot any action matches because there is no division in IDPA or USPSA. We see some at Steel Challenge and there are quite a few 3Gunners that use them as well.

I don't ever plan to have an actual Open pistol that would be suitable for the division...just not worth it to me in several ways.

There certainly is a division for those guns at USPSA. Why not get all those friends together a couple times a year and have them all bring those guns to a USPSA match? Put on an outlaw match for production optics using USPSA rules? Declare your own outlaw division and post unofficial results separately? Demonstrate the need....

I'm all for it if people can demonstrate the need, and I think actions demonstrate the need more effectively than posting on the internet.

I have to admit tho, I don't really get why people feel they can't shoot these guns in open division right now. I don't have the fanciest most competitive production gun (and very few people shoot production here anyway), but I still show up and shoot, and I compare my scores to the top limited and open shooters, and since I use the same gun every match, I can quantify my improvement over time as my percentage of the overall winner gradually rises. Sure, I'm not in the running to win the fabulous motorhome that goes to the division winner in our monthly $8 match, but I don't have a place to park it anyway.

Edited May 27, 2014 by motosapiens

[MarkCO]

But, by your argument, there should only be Open, which the VAST majority of USPSA members don't want. Every gun in Revo, Production, Limited, Limited 10 and SS are legal in Open, so let's just go back and delete all of those useless divisions and just run what you brung the way it used to be.

Production Optics will easily outpace the participation in SS, Lim10 and Revo in a few years, if given the chance to become a division.

[motosapiens]

But, by your argument, there should only be Open, which the VAST majority of USPSA members don't want. Every gun in Revo, Production, Limited, Limited 10 and SS are legal in Open, so let's just go back and delete all of those useless divisions and just run what you brung the way it used to be.

Production Optics will easily outpace the participation in SS, Lim10 and Revo in a few years, if given the chance to become a division.

Wait, what? That's not my argument at all. My argument is that if you can point to enough people showing up to shoot those *already legal* guns, then you'll have a stronger case for making a separate division for them.

I take the approach of "if they come, we should build it" rather than "if we build it, hopefully they will come, and not water down the participation in other divisions".

If *you* like it, and if *you* think it is viable, then I suggest that *you* take the lead in proving it. Two very good ways to prove it are to put on a match for production optics guns and publicize how many people show up, and to show up with those already-legal guns to existing matches. That is concrete evidence. Your last sentence may be true, but it is speculation at this point.

Edited May 27, 2014 by motosapiens

[MarkCO]

May not have been your goal, but that is the logical conclusion.

USPSA must grow, or it will die. Yes, there are variables for how we get there. However, realize that ICORE and IDPA were started by disgruntled USPSA competitors, either due to equipment, or waning match performance, or both. So, here is the key question to ask yourself related to any "division" add or delete...

If said division is added or deleted, will USPSA gain, lose or shift members?

Splitting to Open and Limited retained some members, but a lot more were already gone, and likely brought some back. Lim10 only served to shift members and same with SS. Production added members. From what I can see, the whole 6/8 revo thing did nothing except shift members.

Is shifting members good for USPSA as a whole? Hard to say. Losing members is not good and adding members is good. PO will add members more surely than any Division addition we have had yet. It might bring back some retired members as well.

[motosapiens]

You've certainly been at this much longer than I have, so I respect your opinion and experience. This statement below is key. It seems to me the burden is on you and other supporters to demonstrate its truth. After that, I think any reasonable person would support a PO division.

A survey or a bunch of posts on the web is better than nothing, but the real demonstration is people actually showing up for matches.

PO will add members more surely than any Division addition we have had yet. It might bring back some retired members as well.

Edited May 27, 2014 by motosapiens

[sperman]

If the BOD is going to consider this division, there are a couple of problems that must be solved:

1. What do you do about guns having to fit in the box?

2. What do you do about guns having to make weight?

[MarkCO]

If the BOD is going to consider this division, there are a couple of problems that must be solved:

1. What do you do about guns having to fit in the box?

2. What do you do about guns having to make weight?

That is why they get paid the big bucks all the fame.

1. Make a slider door in the production box. The gun has to be inside, but the optic can be out the door.

2. Add the weight of the optic to the gun.

Edited May 27, 2014 by MarkCO

[motosapiens]

If the BOD is going to consider this division, there are a couple of problems that must be solved:

1. What do you do about guns having to fit in the box?

2. What do you do about guns having to make weight?

Those seem like trivial problems once MarkCo's question is positively answered (i.e., it is demonstrated that adding the division would increase participation in USPSA).

Make a bigger box, increase the weight limit, and/or come up with some other scheme to keep the guns relatively stock.

[sperman]

Allowing 8 shot revolvers seemed trivial too, but we see how that turned out.

[motosapiens]

Allowing 8 shot revolvers seemed trivial too, but we see how that turned out.

I don't really see the analogy, but like most people I don't care or know about revolvers.

Seems to me (from reading post titles) that the revolver thing involved a major/minor split *within* a division. I think the PO idea is about an entirely new and separate division.

[BritinUSA]

The weight of a handgun in Production Optics would likely be lower than normal if the slide was machined to accepted the red dot. One solution would be to gather the weight of the gun without the slide and then use that as a comparison for Production Optics, just remove the slide and check the weight of the complete frame instead.

[Jadeslade]

Production optics is a great idea. A lot of experienced people carry weapons with dots. No one is carrying a frame mounted dot. I am not sure that a dot on a Production gun makes you a whole lot faster than irons if at all. So you could just make it it legal for Production, period. If it starts looking like a big advantage then separate into Production and Production Optics.

[bmiller]

I was amazed at the number of slide mounted red dots at the PA Steel Shootout. I think it would be a viable division.

[bikerburgess]

Production optics is a great idea. A lot of experienced people carry weapons with dots. No one is carrying a frame mounted dot. I am not sure that a dot on a Production gun makes you a whole lot faster than irons if at all. So you could just make it it legal for Production, period. If it starts looking like a big advantage then separate into Production and Production Optics.

In my experience what makes a open gun more competitive in our game are in order

The dot

The dot

The dot

Magazine capacity

Major scoring

The comp

A production gun with a dot and a 170 mag will take most people 90+% as far as they can go in the sport.

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[ctay]

Couldn't the BOD approve this as a provisional division and give it a year to prove itself? Since there is no way for headquarters to see what type of open gun I'm shooting at a match the "just shoot it and see if you can get enough participation" method can not work.

If the BOD is going to consider this division, there are a couple of problems that must be solved:

1. What do you do about guns having to fit in the box?

2. What do you do about guns having to make weight?

Would a box with no top not work? ie essentially a u sized box? Seems to me the front to back dimension is the important one.

As to weight, couldn't we just increase the weight allowed by the heaviest current slide ride optic? Say production weight plus 3 oz or whatever a slide ride optic weighs?

[ZackJones]

I was amazed at the number of slide mounted red dots at the PA Steel Shootout. I think it would be a viable division.

You bring up a great point. Production Optics would be a great class for steel challenge. I'm drafting my email to the BoD now and I will include that in my email.

[Shadyscott999]

Production optics is a great idea. A lot of experienced people carry weapons with dots. No one is carrying a frame mounted dot. I am not sure that a dot on a Production gun makes you a whole lot faster than irons if at all. So you could just make it it legal for Production, period. If it starts looking like a big advantage then separate into Production and Production Optics.

In my experience what makes a open gun more competitive in our game are in order

The dot

The dot

The dot

Magazine capacity

Major scoring

The comp

A production gun with a dot and a 170 mag will take most people 90+% as far as they can go in the sport.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

I am not sure I completely agree with this. I do think the dot is the biggest factor though. The comp plays a bigger roll as you advance in class, IMO.

[MarkCO]

Magazine capacity, then the dot, comp and major. Taking one or two reloads off the clock is certainly a bigger factor than the dot. Go look at classifier scores for the top dogs and a normal C class shooter who shoots both Open and Production...the difference is not more than one reload.

[Supermoto]

For me, the dot is only a benefit over iron when I get past 10-15y. As said magazine capacity is the big difference. Since I now live in a state were mag capacity is restricted tot he same round count in both open and limited, I find very little difference in my score between the two division.

I think people will find that the dot is not the magic skill pill that just paid for

[motosapiens]

magazine capacity? really? that seems counter-intuitive, but maybe we're not talking about A through GM shooters. I don't see very many field stages where good limited shooters have to make a reload that actually takes time.

Anyway, that's kind of a thread hijack, so who cares.

[Gooldylocks]

I think that production optics would only be fun for anybody off the street that has one of these guns to come shoot if it was minor and 10 round mags. I would also agree that the weight limits should just be increased by whatever the heaviest slide ride optic comes in at plus a little bit of wiggle room for mounting hardware (even a CMore slide-ride is only 3 oz, micro dots are under 2 generally with hardware).

As far as having single stack guns in the division, what about the small 1911 magwells (smith & alexander etc)? Are they going to not be allowed?

[mpolans]

Why does it have to be a slide ride? Why not let it be open for folks to design new, ingenious ways of making and mounting optics on a duty weapon-sized package.

[Chris iliff]

There certainly is a place to shoot the production optic, as motosapiens points out. Going on ten years in the sport and achieving almost all my goals, I will probably shoot this in OPEN division at some point. I know I could talk some of my friends into the adventure.

But, that is not the same, not even close, to getting the owners who already have these types of guns in the safe and the CC crowd to come out and play.

Kinda hard to sell the endeavor to these shooters by saying, "yeah, not really a division for you per se, but we will just stick you in with the OPEN shooters, come on out!"

IMHO that's just not going to be that productive. Under those conditions I don't see a bunch of growth.

Hence my "If you build it, they will come" approach.

Also, I just don't see it being that difficult to set up. A lot of "what if's" blah, blah, blah. Get bantered around and tend to bog the issue down for no reason.

It's Production, it's production rules, it's a slide mounted optic, if something like weight or box seems hard, strike it from this divisions rules. It doesn't have to be hard, in fact, keep it simple.

The gun is on the production list, it has a slide mounted optic, your holster and belt and pouches are the same as for production. Very simple. Why try to bog it down with boxes and weights of guns? That's just ridiculous stuff bogging it down for no reason.

It's fairly easy to implement, if you use common sense.