Production optics

[G34 CORDY]

Personally production needs to stay like it is (simple). Optics already has a division. The only gripe I have about production is the 10 round rule its bad enough we have stock style guns now throwing a ton of reloads in the mix just makes it harder but can be fun at times. I do love production though.

[Steve RA]

My reasons why I don't think there should be a Super Squad:

A. Most - probably all - are highly subsidized or full time employees of the firms they represent. so, in effect they are advertising agents for these firms.

B. Basically, all the others using any products from these firms are supporting the firms in question.

C. Because the Super Squad is a very small percentage of the shooters involved in USPSA, they provide the same percentage of the support to USPSA in the form of match fees, annual dues and such.

D. The argument is/has been made that the top shooters should shoot together so the lighting/weather, etc, would be the same for them. Why should they have this benefit, especially if they are the top shooters, if it is not available to any of the others shooters/classes ??

E. A good point has been made previously that it would benefit all the other shooters more if they were on the same squad as one of the top shooters/Super Squad members. I think this point has been established for a long time that shooting with someone better is a big help in improving your own shooting.

Flame away - and then state your reasons that there should be a Super Squad. And please don't use the argument that it improves the viewing for spectators as the number of paying spectators you could get into Jerry's World (Texas Stadium) for a match would not fill up one taxi cab.

[Sarge]

My reasons why I don't think there should be a Super Squad:

A. Most - probably all - are highly subsidized or full time employees of the firms they represent. so, in effect they are advertising agents for these firms. I don't see a point here.

B. Basically, all the others using any products from these firms are supporting the firms in question. Correct, so.......?

C. Because the Super Squad is a very small percentage of the shooters involved in USPSA, they provide the same percentage of the support to USPSA in the form of match fees, annual dues and such. Sorry, I don't see a point here either.

D. The argument is/has been made that the top shooters should shoot together so the lighting/weather, etc, would be the same for them. Why should they have this benefit, especially if they are the top shooters, if it is not available to any of the others shooters/classes . Because PROBABLY somebody on the SS is going to actually be in contention to win the match. Sure, winners can come from outside the SS but the odds are typically against it.

E. A good point has been made previously that it would benefit all the other shooters more if they were on the same squad as one of the top shooters/Super Squad members. I think this point has been established for a long time that shooting with someone better is a big help in improving your own shooting. At the level of match where there is actually a true SS I don't see this as a time to be trying to learn all that much from watching a top shooter. You should have come to that event prepared with YOUR best game and stick to the plan. Locally? By all means shoot with the GM's. I learn a lot watching them. But local matches are good for learning where Area and National level matches are true tests.

Flame away - and then state your reasons that there should be a Super Squad. And please don't use the argument that it improves the viewing for spectators as the number of paying spectators you could get into Jerry's World (Texas Stadium) for a match would not fill up one taxi cab. There may not be a bunch of spectators. But there are two things to consider. First, most spectators are shooting the match as well so they don't really have time to stand around and watch the SS. Second, Video and photography can make us all spectators of the SS once published.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Also, even though I am a relatively new player in this game I have RO'd some of the best, i.e. real SS types. I personally don't want to shoot with them. It can be a very slow process running 10 of the best shooters in the world through a stage. Pre shot routines can be quite lengthy, Nearly any score is apt to be challenged, etc..

Sorry, but at this stage of the game for me personally, no thanks.

[Craig N]

...acceptance of micro dots in the tactical/gun fighting community (on handguns) I think it's only a logical step...

Ask IDPA to do it.

Im all for the Carry Optics division.

[lawboy]

Super Squad is primarily a way to make media coverage easy for the media outlets.

Also, camera crews running all over kingdom come at a match trying to get coverage of the best shooters is not conducive to running a smooth match. If they can follow a single squad and get their coverage, the sponsors, match officials, TV viewers and the sport as a whole comes out ahead in the opinion of the people who make such decisions.

What you and I think matters not in the least!

Edited December 11, 2012 by lawboy

[G34 CORDY]

...acceptance of micro dots in the tactical/gun fighting community (on handguns) I think it's only a logical step...

Ask IDPA to do it.

Im all for the Carry Optics division.

I could see this in IDPA but not so much in USPSA. Just my 2 cents for whatever its worth.

[Craig N]

I honestly don't see where it would hurt IDPA to have a carry optics division. You wouldn't need one to win because HOA doesn't win anything and they would all be in the Division so so High CO wouldn't effect High SSP or ESP.

[phearkno1]

Less is more. No need for another division. If you want to shoot it by all means do it in open. Just cause everyone else in that class is shooting sti 2011 type race guns doesn't mean you HAVE to have that setup to do well. Might not be as easy to be competitive, but if you're looking for the easy way to be competitive you'll be sorely disappointed no matter what division you choose or try and invent.

[Reshoot]

I moved to Open Division, this past August, because of my vision. I did so on a budget, using my limited division 40 caliber, knowing I would not be competative anyhow. However, I am quickly finding that I am going to be competative . . . against other senior and super senior open shooters. I am a happy camper!

Give it a try . . . it is the answer, in my humble opinion

[TGO]

My reasons why I don't think there should be a Super Squad:

A. Most - probably all - are highly subsidized or full time employees of the firms they represent. so, in effect they are advertising agents for these firms.

B. Basically, all the others using any products from these firms are supporting the firms in question.

C. Because the Super Squad is a very small percentage of the shooters involved in USPSA, they provide the same percentage of the support to USPSA in the form of match fees, annual dues and such.

D. The argument is/has been made that the top shooters should shoot together so the lighting/weather, etc, would be the same for them. Why should they have this benefit, especially if they are the top shooters, if it is not available to any of the others shooters/classes ??

E. A good point has been made previously that it would benefit all the other shooters more if they were on the same squad as one of the top shooters/Super Squad members. I think this point has been established for a long time that shooting with someone better is a big help in improving your own shooting.

Flame away - and then state your reasons that there should be a Super Squad. And please don't use the argument that it improves the viewing for spectators as the number of paying spectators you could get into Jerry's World (Texas Stadium) for a match would not fill up one taxi cab.

Steve, with all respect, you are missing the point and wrong on several issues here. You sound bitter and I might add, I'm the guy you are talking about so let me retort.

Shooting in the super squad was instituted for one reason only, to make it fair and equal for the shooters LIKELY to win the match. They all have the same conditions, lighting, weather and most importantly, pressure. Every form of competition does this at the highest levels.

They don't run the Olympic hundred meters in groups, one in the morning and another in the afternoon and then give out the medals by the times they ran. That is just to qualify to get in. You have to beat your opponent at the same time, same conditions to really win.

Also, having one guy on your squad shooting a couple classes above the average does NOT help everyone else! If anything it makes it worse when the others try to play "match the Master " and shoot way above their heads and miss, crash and burn. I have no idea why you think that's been established for a long time? My experience being the guy you are talking about is very different than what you present.

Yes I am an advertising commercial. And if you count up the dollars I have spent on entry fees and products over the years, I have outspent and supported more than any 100 maybe 1,000 new shooters. I didn't always get things for free, and if I am spending my sponsors dollars now, they are still going to the same place that all funds go to operate a match and organization. I still have to decide whether I go to the Nationals or send daughter to Cross Country camp just like everybody else.

I do not mean to complain, I'm living the best life I could imagine. I am not rich but I love my job and what I do and that is worth a lot to me.

The super squads police themselves in a way no one else would, including RO's. Damn few shenanigans happen in those squads as the other competitors just do not let it happen if at all possible. The honor system works much better when the guy you are trying to cheat is waiting to tape the target on which you are trying to get your 5th perfect double of the match! The shooters you are competing against need to be there if possible. We already have lots of winners with an asterisk next to their names on the record books.

This is supposed to be about the optics for seniors thing. Lots of good points were made in the previous posts. Most are valid. While some who are young have less than perfect eyes, almost 100% of those in the senior divisions need correction.

I propose a couple options

1. We allow a senior in ANY division to use an optic. By doing so they are competing in senior or super senior class in that division only and are separated out of the results for that division. Ie, I can use an optic if I choose on my SS gun in 2016, but I am not eligible to place in other than senior division as I agree, it is too much of an advantage. Not sure it even should be recognized at the Area or Nationals level, just something to allow us older folks a chance to shoot on the local level with a better chance of hitting.

2. Production optics. This has already been talked about here, but as much as you may not want to admit it, these guns are part of the landscape now and are the logical evolution of the sighting system. We are at the beginning, but optical sights do have several huge advantages over iron sights. And not only for us old farts. If we are looking forward we need to accept this. We need an optical sighted division that makes more sense than open that uses these advances in technology. Several manufacturers are now offering out of the box, optics ready models that are otherwise the same as their most popular production models. And by production I mean models they regularly produce in large quantity and legal for production division.

Please understand that I do not really like the idea of these sights in general, but I do see the need and advantages the concept holds. from a personal standpoint, I can no longer see the sights on my carry gun as well as I'd like to. I can't wear my prescription glasses that let me see the sights clearly enough for daily use, I'd bump/run into all manner of things. Those of you without this issue can and will not really understand what I mean. That's OK, I never did like optics, but I see their point.

As a side, many advanced and well funded military and police groups authorize/approve/issue this setup already.

The product isn't yet perfect, but as in all things like this, competition does the best job of developing and testing new technologies.

I also don't want the guy who comes out to a match with an otherwise production legal gun to have to shoot open.

I look forward to this discussion developing.

Edited February 4, 2013 by TGO

[Carmoney]

I propose a couple options

1. We allow a senior in ANY division to use an optic. By doing so they are competing in senior or super senior class in that division only and are separated out of the results for that division. Ie, I can use an optic if I choose on my SS gun in 2016, but I am not eligible to place in other than senior division as I agree, it is too much of an advantage. Not sure it even should be recognized at the Area or Nationals level, just something to allow us older folks a chance to shoot on the local level with a better chance of hitting.

2. Production optics. This has already been talked about here, but as much as you may not want to admit it, these guns are part of the landscape now and are the logical evolution of the sighting system. We are at the beginning, but optical sights do have several huge advantages over iron sights. And not only for us old farts. If we are looking forward we need to accept this. We need an optical sighted division that makes more sense than open that uses these advances in technology. Several manufacturers are now offering out of the box, optics ready models that are otherwise the same as their most popular production models. And by production I mean models they regularly produce in large quantity and legal for production division.

Rob's proposal is very interesting to me. I have very little personal experience with handgun optics, and frankly have very little interest in shooting with any sort of scope on a handgun. However, over the past couple of years, I have started to notice my vision really beginning to decline, in both pure acuity and in flexibility of focus. I'm nowhere near the point where my eyesight is killing my shooting game, but I can see it coming down the road.

The real issue is what is "good for the game." Although we all want to see lots of fresh young shooters entering the world of USPSA/IPSC competition, the unfortunate reality is we are an aging group. As an organization, we should strive to bring new shooters, especially young shooters, into the fold. But we better also be thinking very seriously about how to retain our older guys, y'know what I mean? Every marketing study will show that it's far easier to retain a current customer than it is to attract a new customer.

If an older shooter with gradually failing vision is at the point where it's just no fun to try to shoot with iron sights anymore, but wants to compete against other Revolver shooters, other Production shooters--whatever the division--and he's willing to forego actual division recognition in favor of just running against the other seniors and super seniors for category recognition, what could it possibly hurt? It seems like it would allow those guys to have fun and stick around and shoot the divisions they like to shoot (which for many people, will be something other than Open), while still preserving the integrity of the various equipment divisions and the "real results."

This is certainly something that deserves a serious look.

[Steve RA]

No Doug (real old joke) I'm not bitter, just thought I'd add something new to the discussion and see how other people felt about it.

As far as the optics go, I suggested that about Senior and Super Senior classes some time back and everyone seemed to think that the answer was to shoot Open. Thats ok, but if you have managed to advance to Senior or Super Senior you probably could not be very competitive in Open, especially if you just wanted to shoot your Single Stack gun. I even suggested that it would have to be a slide mounted dot so you could still use the same holster and gear.

[Bosshoss]

Maybe a Minor open class? I know no body wants another class but it might prove to be like production and very popular.

If it was NO porting(not that porting does that much good at minor PF), optics OK and 8 round limit in mags(no barneys).

Holster and mag pouches can be anything and anywhere.

I have heard many shooters who would love to try open but can't afford it or don't want to give it a try because of the cost.

Would also give a place for the 8 shot revolvers to play.( I know this won't help revolver division get the bigger turn outs it's looking for or will it)

Just think a shooter could get a S&W MP and several 10 shot mags (cheaper than 1 170 open mag) and throw a dot on it and have a blast with say $800-$1000 invested.

A place for senior and younger shooter with vision problems.

Singles stacks and production based gun running with 8 shot revolvers heads up and on a level playing field.

Just a thought.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Bosshoss

[BritinUSA]

I'm not sure that anyone has created a slide-mounted optic that is 100% reliable with regards to breakages etc.. I am sure that this will change in the not too distant future, and when that happens we may see more manufacturers offering this as an option. As it catches on then more and more guns may have this technology and then there may be a need to either create or modify an existing USPSA division for these types of guns.

I don't think we are there yet... But I think we will be soon.

On the Super Squad thing; Striving to keep the conditions as close as possible for the top shooters has always been the primary goal, but as coverage has increased so I think has the secondary goal of providing media focus on the top shooters has arisen. We don't have the funding to provide video coverage of multiple squads at the same time (though the technology does exist).

I'm hoping that at the Production Nationals I will be able to have live coverage of both the top Men's & Women's Squads at the same time (assuming we have a Women's Super Squad).

[Supermoto]

We already have Open minor. You want to shoot with optics on your production gun, shoot in open. We don't need duplicate divisions

[Bosshoss]

We already had a limited class years ago and but we now have a production class that has been very good for the sport and is as popular or more popular in some areas than limited class. Minor open that you say we have now still requires a 3000 gun and several other hundred dollars in magazines, if you want to be competitive.

[Steve RA]

I think the point I tried to make earlier and Robbie said approximately the same thing is/was that it was for Senior and Super Senior shooters so they could still remain in the same class/classes they are presently in and merely have an aid for poorer vision due to advanced age. After all, they are only competing in the appropriate senior class and would not have any effect on the overall class scoring.

[TGO]

No Doug (real old joke) I'm not bitter, just thought I'd add something new to the discussion and see how other people felt about it.

As far as the optics go, I suggested that about Senior and Super Senior classes some time back and everyone seemed to think that the answer was to shoot Open. Thats ok, but if you have managed to advance to Senior or Super Senior you probably could not be very competitive in Open, especially if you just wanted to shoot your Single Stack gun. I even suggested that it would have to be a slide mounted dot so you could still use the same holster and gear.

I agree 100% with this!!!

[Supermoto]

So we need a new division so old people can feel good about themselves again?

[TGO]

We already have Open minor. You want to shoot with optics on your production gun, shoot in open. We don't need duplicate divisions

So we need a new division so old people can feel good about themselves again?

OK, now I remember why I don't spend that much time on some of these forums. I remember having to deal with this type of mentality from my kids. They were very young though and all grew out of it. Good lord!!

[toothguy]

So we need a new division so old people can feel good about themselves again?

It's smart to retain dedicated shooters or customers if you can. Every successful business does it. I wonder how many of the older bullseye shooters would have been forced to quit if they had not allowed optics.

Edited February 5, 2013 by toothguy

[Supermoto]

I remember having to deal with this type of mentality from my kids. They were very young though and all grew out of it. Good lord!!

I have a cartoon pig as an avatar, I figured my mentality was going to be obvious.

[Ben Stoeger]

So we need a new division so old people can feel good about themselves again?

Is that so bad?

[Steve RA]

I sense there are a few coming around now.

[Flexmoney]

E. A good point has been made previously that it would benefit all the other shooters more if they were on the same squad as one of the top shooters/Super Squad members. I think this point has been established for a long time that shooting with someone better is a big help in improving your own shooting.

Skip a Major match ($) and take a class. Or, heck...just go to a match and watch the Super Squad. Which is what you'd be doing if you were on a squad with a top shooter anyway...but you'd get to see all of them...for free.