Unspecified hand location for start positions are lame.

[racerba]

29 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

"...defining hand positions is a commonly overlooked start position element that stage designers simply forget about."

well, previously, if you didn't specify hand position, the default is "hands at sides".  that's why it's "overlooked" nowadays...

[Boomstick303]

While I agree on a couple of things in this thread, I do think if that is the stage designer's intent that it is not a bad thing, as long as its not every stage or even 50% of them.  

 

While I agree having something like 50% of the stages that do NOT indicate hand position could be considered lazy, just as it would be odd to have 3-4 stages in any match with unloaded starts, or starts off barrels etc.  Too much of the same is not interesting.   Should it not be a mix of start positions to make the match interesting and testing different skills.  How many of us have dropped a mag out of the gun on table/barrel starts when we smash the mag release in picking up the gun.  Table and barrel starts are testing a skill.  

 

I think an item in this game that is overlooked often is paying attention to detail as a competitor.  Understanding the rules, reading the WSB and playing within these rules and WSB to achieve the end goal of finishing the stage as quick as possible is part of the game.  I do not know how many times a WSB does not indicate stock on belt for PCC and I start with the PCC on shoulder and people are screaming you cannot do that.  Only to realize they are incorrect.  

 

Leaving out these details if the stage designer means to do so tests comprehension and attention to detail skills.  I agree with @CHA-LEE, it is up to the MD to make sure the match start positions vary.  I have been to more than one match where I have been annoyed where damn near every stage was an unloaded start.  Not interesting at all.  

 

 

[CHA-LEE]

29 minutes ago, RJH said:

Interesting that a hand position at start subject just came up.

 

I was shooting a match the other day and we were looking for the hand position in the WSB, I can't remember how it ended up, but that's not the important part.

 

One of the other shooters there happened to mention that if the WSB didn't say what the hand location was you could start with your hand on the gun. I told him that was not correct.

 

He then mention that he had just shot one of the biggest matches in the country a week or so before and an ro there told that the WSB had to specify the hand location, because otherwise you could start with your hand on the gun. I told him that ro was incorrect. He didn't want to believe some local yokel, so I had to dig around on my phone and find the rule.

 

Just one of the many times when it pays to know the rules, and never trust an ro LOL

 

PS this is all discussing pistols, obviously you start with your hand on a PCC

 

This is the exact example of how not listing the hand position in the WSB can waste time for everyone during a match and ultimately detract from everyones enjoyment of the stage.

[motosapiens]

36 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

How many of us have dropped a mag out of the gun on table/barrel starts when we smash the mag release in picking up the gun.  Table and barrel starts are testing a skill.  

 

 

After it happened once, I started flipping the gun over so the mag release faces up, and picking it up with my left hand. No difference on the clock, but I know the magazine will stay in.

[DKorn]

I like it, but not for every stage - vary it up!

 

I prefer a variety of start positions, including some unusual ones and different combinations. If everything is unspecified or wrists below belt, it gets repetitive - give me options some of the time, but also keep it interesting!

[Fishbreath]

19 hours ago, driver8M3 said:

Do you also hate "anywhere" start positions?

 

I don't hate them, but I think a thoughtfully-chosen start position is never worse and usually better than 'anywhere'.

[motosapiens]

Just now, Fishbreath said:

 

I don't hate them, but I think a thoughtfully-chosen start position is never worse and usually better than 'anywhere'.

I do anywhere starts probably 15-20% of the time. I usually get good feedback from shooters. Of course many stages that allow anywhere starts it really only makes sense to start in one place, but part of the fun for many of us is analyzing the different options and choices, so having more options and choices makes for more fun.

[Fishbreath]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Of course many stages that allow anywhere starts it really only makes sense to start in one place

 

This is precisely my issue with them: almost all the time, they're not meaningful options. There's one best place to start, and everyone starts there. You might as well just have a start stick (or two, for lefties on side-to-side stages).

 

My general feeling is that a fixed, neutral start position is at least as good at generating a variety of stage plans as a start-anywhere stage.

[MikeBurgess]

non specified had positions work great at local matches, you never get home and see videos of a whole squad starting hands at sides when the WSB said writs above that way. 

 

that said for locals I try to keep it wrists below or touching x or wrists above when facing up range, for major matches with fixed staff I will vary it more because the staff will know what the start position is and should get it correct.

 

[Racinready300ex]

29 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

This is precisely my issue with them: almost all the time, they're not meaningful options. There's one best place to start, and everyone starts there. You might as well just have a start stick (or two, for lefties on side-to-side stages).

 

My general feeling is that a fixed, neutral start position is at least as good at generating a variety of stage plans as a start-anywhere stage.

 

Yeah, I can't guess how many times I've been asked the start position and say something like "well it's anywhere...but it's really right there" pointing to the spot on the stage where there is now a hole from the 150 shooter from the day before. 

[Maximis228]

I was always under the impression that if nothing is stated for hand position, you default to wrists below belt. Apparently, our rulebook isnt thick enough lol. 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

I was always under the impression that if nothing is stated for hand position, you default to wrists below belt. Apparently, our rulebook isnt thick enough lol. 

 

Previously the default position was hands hanging naturally at sides. I think they took it out because of all the arguments of what naturally at sides meant, even though there was a picture in the back of the rule book that demonstrated it

[Racinready300ex]

54 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

I was always under the impression that if nothing is stated for hand position, you default to wrists below belt. Apparently, our rulebook isnt thick enough lol. 

 

Yeah we had that discussion on our first stage and determined it was old news and only us boomers would think that. Well, that's not exactly how it went. I'm sure I knew of this change I just forgot about it. 

[shred]

I used 'wrists above ears', and "arms outstretched vertically overhead" but the PCC shooters got grumpy.  

 

I don't particularly like the trend towards making everything "easier" (on the RO, on the shooter) by letting people do whatever, claiming "it's the same for everyone" or "it doesn't really matter".

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

Previously the default position was hands hanging naturally at sides. I think they took it out because of all the arguments of what naturally at sides meant, even though there was a picture in the back of the rule book that demonstrated it

a picture of one guy with one body type. didn't really work for many people. was dumb, and mostly used by bad RO's on a power trip.

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, shred said:

I used 'wrists above ears', and "arms outstretched vertically overhead" but the PCC shooters got grumpy.  

 

 

I used 'pcc held overhead', but the pcc shooters are either cheaters or too dumb to read, so they all started stock on belt. As mike burgess alludes to, In local matches it really needs to be simple and clear since you don't have static RO's that can read.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, shred said:

I used 'wrists above ears', and "arms outstretched vertically overhead" but the PCC shooters got grumpy.  

 

I don't particularly like the trend towards making everything "easier" (on the RO, on the shooter) by letting people do whatever, claiming "it's the same for everyone" or "it doesn't really matter".

 

 

 

The MD that ran our area match up here for a few years would try to make every start in his match different and not use wrists below belt at all. There would be a few that were like touch marks, but even then it can be touching, vs palms flat, marks can be on a wall or a table, high or low. Lots of options. His match was the first time I saw someone make PCC shooters do wrists above shoulders, they were hot. 

 

Somewhere in the middle is probably more ideal. lol

[Maximis228]

1 hour ago, shred said:

I used 'wrists above ears', and "arms outstretched vertically overhead" but the PCC shooters got grumpy.  

 

I don't particularly like the trend towards making everything "easier" (on the RO, on the shooter) by letting people do whatever, claiming "it's the same for everyone" or "it doesn't really matter".

 

 

Gotta make it sound fun... Stand like a Tusken Raider trying to alert the others. 

[Nolan]

5 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Previously the default position was hands hanging naturally at sides. I think they took it out because of all the arguments of what naturally at sides meant, even though there was a picture in the back of the rule book that demonstrated it

 

Years ago at a local match, before the default position was instituted, the start position on one stage was "Standing like the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Strong hand hovering over, but not touching the loaded, holstered handgun."  Man, I miss Steve McCormick's sense of humor!

 

Nolan

[Blackstone45]

When is USPSA going to adopt the IPSC "standing relaxed as demonstrated" 

[shred]

17 hours ago, Nolan said:

 

Years ago at a local match, before the default position was instituted, the start position on one stage was "Standing like the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Strong hand hovering over, but not touching the loaded, holstered handgun."  Man, I miss Steve McCormick's sense of humor!

 

Nolan

"IPSC-monkey" is another good one but takes too much explaining these days 

 

[thermobollocks]

Standing anywhere gives the competitors something else to think about in stage planning. More so if the stage doesn't lend itself easily to a simple left to right or back to front approach.

[IVC]

To continue this discussion from a slightly different angle...

 

WSB *must* include the start position, per 3.2.1. Position of the hands is part of the "start position." If the WSB does NOT contain the initial hands position, it's not compliant with 3.2.1. Explicitly stating "any hand position" does specify the starting position and passes the muster, but omitting it is in violation of 3.2.1. So, the lazy way of forgetting it is against the rules. 

 

Anyone disagrees on this interpretation of 3.2.1? 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

To continue this discussion from a slightly different angle...

 

WSB *must* include the start position, per 3.2.1. Position of the hands is part of the "start position." If the WSB does NOT contain the initial hands position, it's not compliant with 3.2.1. Explicitly stating "any hand position" does specify the starting position and passes the muster, but omitting it is in violation of 3.2.1. So, the lazy way of forgetting it is against the rules. 

 

Anyone disagrees on this interpretation of 3.2.1? 

Disagree based on this

https://nroi.org/nroi-tips/nroi-tips-start-positions/

[ddc]

2 hours ago, IVC said:

To continue this discussion from a slightly different angle...

 

WSB *must* include the start position, per 3.2.1. Position of the hands is part of the "start position." If the WSB does NOT contain the initial hands position, it's not compliant with 3.2.1. Explicitly stating "any hand position" does specify the starting position and passes the muster, but omitting it is in violation of 3.2.1. So, the lazy way of forgetting it is against the rules. 

 

Anyone disagrees on this interpretation of 3.2.1? 

 

Where in the rulebook does it say "Position of the hands is part of the "start position.""  ?