Unspecified hand location for start positions are lame.

[IVC]

2 hours ago, ddc said:

 

Where in the rulebook does it say "Position of the hands is part of the "start position.""  ?

 

Appendix A3 (Glossary) defines the "Start Position" as "The location, shooting position and stance of the competitor..." But the same appendix also defines "Shooting position" as "The physical presentation of a person's body..." and, more importantly, the "Stance" as "The physical presentation of a person's limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.)."

 

If 3.2.1 *requires* specification of the "start position" and the definition of the "start position" includes *three* elements  (uses keyword "and"; all three are required), one of them is the "stance" and the "stance" is defined as presentation of the limbs, with specific examples of hands and arms, I would say the Rule Book DOES say hands are a part of the start position. 

 

 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

Disagree based on this

https://nroi.org/nroi-tips/nroi-tips-start-positions/

Yet "start position" *requires* stance and 3.2.1 *requires* "start position" in the WSB.... Hmmm....

Edited July 6, 2023 by IVC
punctuation

[broadside72]

Isn't not specifying a "stance", specifying any "stance"? Or do you want truly freestyle starts listed in those WSBs with "hands anywhere except in contact with handgun or loading devices (incidental contact is allowed)" or similar language?

[IVC]

Not specifying something is not the same as specifying that it can be any. Otherwise we couldn't differentiate between "must specify the start position" and "should specify the start position."

 

And "hands anywhere" must be specified if that's the intent, otherwise the usual "wrists below belt" can be included. Not only is this required by the rules, but it also has a formal role before "are you ready?" can be issued. The competitor must assume the start position per 8.3.1. before the RO can proceed to the "are you ready?" While many will rest the shooting hand on the gun in the holster while visualizing the stage to make it clear they are not yet ready, some will not. A guy holding hands in front of him with eyes closed could be visualizing the stage, or could be ready. 

 

There is no need to specify all the details that are in 8.2 such as not touching the gun. Those are the rules that the RO enforces if the competitor doesn't know them. There is no penalty for violating 8.2, so it's up to the RO to make sure the rules are followed. In fact, most of section 8.2 specifies what cannot be in the WSB ("... must not require") while only a few address what is not allowed by the competitor and those are up to the RO to make sure are not violated prior to the buzzer going off. 

[IVC]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:08 AM, CHA-LEE said:

 

This is the exact example of how not listing the hand position in the WSB can waste time for everyone during a match and ultimately detract from everyones enjoyment of the stage.

 

And this is another reason not to play games with the WSB and push the rules. I mean, it's one thing for competitors to game the rules, but for organizers to game the WSB in order to provide an intentional hidden point of contention that won't have any impact on the outcome of the competition is plain silly.

 

If the intent is to have "any hand position," it's trivial to include this language in the WSB and avoid any questions that will inevitably follow if the hand position is missing. 

[Joe4d]

Good night Irene,, what the hell was wrong with the old rule with a default hands at side position ?  
USPSA,,,way better and clearer rules, enforcement and consistency than other games...
NROI... hold my beer.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Joe4d

[broadside72]

I agree that the WSB must have a start position described.

 

But per the glossary start position is "The location, shooting position and stance of the competitor as prescribed by the Written Stage Briefing prior to issuance of the “start signal”. The start position MUST be clearly defined by the Written Stage Briefing."

 

If the WSB does not prescribe something as part of the start position, then is not required. The individual components of the start position are not required per that definition. 

[IVC]

That would be a circular definition that would allow complete omission of the start position from the WSB because, well, it's not in the WSB to begin with. 

[Cuz]

Why didn’t anyone start with their hand gripping the gun, ready to yank it out of the holster at the beep?

[motosapiens]

On 7/5/2023 at 8:47 PM, ddc said:

 

Where in the rulebook does it say "Position of the hands is part of the "start position.""  ?

it doesn't. the glossary defines 'start position', but is silent on anything to do with hands.

[RJH]

39 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Why didn’t anyone start with their hand gripping the gun, ready to yank it out of the holster at the beep?

 

Probably because that's against the rules

[IVC]

45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

it doesn't. the glossary defines 'start position', but is silent on anything to do with hands.

It is NOT silent.

 

From the "A3 - Glossary"

Quote

Start Position: The location, shooting position and stance of the competitor as prescribed by the Written Stage Briefing prior to issuance of the “start signal”. The start position MUST be clearly defined by the Written Stage Briefing.

 

Shooting position: The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone).

 

Stance: The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.)

 

It explicitly defines "...and stance" and then defines what "stance" means, to include limbs/arms/hands. 

[IVC]

56 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Why didn’t anyone start with their hand gripping the gun, ready to yank it out of the holster at the beep?

 

Rule 8.2.3 does not allow the RO to start anyone in that condition. 

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, IVC said:

It is NOT silent.

 

From the "A3 - Glossary"

 

It explicitly defines "...and stance" and then defines what "stance" means, to include limbs/arms/hands. 

thank you for supporting my position.  the glossary does define what the stance *might* include, but those are examples and are clearly not required elements. 

 

however, it certainly won't bother me if you specify a very detailed hand/arm position in every stage you design and build.

Edited July 7, 2023 by motosapiens

[IVC]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

thank you for supporting my position.  the glossary does define what the stance *might* include, but those are examples and are clearly not required elements. 

The glossary defines "stance" as "position of limbs." A WSB that doesn't specify position of limbs doesn't define stance and therefore doesn't define the start position correctly.

 

You can ignore the part after the "e.g.," but you cannot ignore the definition itself. If you think that "position of limbs" doesn't matter, write a short segment that you would put into a WSB and that you would consider to satisfy the requirement to define the start position, so we can analyze your example and determine whether it does or does not meet the requirements of 3.2.1 -> start position -> stance -> position of limbs. 

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, IVC said:

You can ignore the part after the "e.g.," but you cannot ignore the definition itself. If you think that "position of limbs" doesn't matter, write a short segment that you would put into a WSB and that you would consider to satisfy the requirement to define the start position, so we can analyze your example and determine whether it does or does not meet the requirements of 3.2.1 -> start position -> stance -> position of limbs. 

 

nobody really cares what your interpretation of 3.2.1 is. The fact is we have large numbers of wsb's at major matches approved by NROI that don't specify hand position.

 

We have many that don't specify the start position either, by stating 'anywhere inside shooting area' or similar. Based on that, one would assume that actually writing out 'hand position may be anywhere not otherwise disallowed by the rules' would be ok, and it's only a small step from there to accurately determine that's what is meant by omitting a specific hand position.

[IVC]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

nobody really cares what your interpretation of 3.2.1 is.

Provably wrong statement. 

[Cuz]

21 hours ago, IVC said:

 

Rule 8.2.3 does not allow the RO to start anyone in that condition. 

Thanks, that is pretty clear.