Unspecified hand location for start positions are lame.

[Racinready300ex]

Anyone else agree? Yes, no maybe?

 

I hadn't put much thought into it before TBH. But, at A6 almost all the stages didn't say what to do with your hands. So everyone started with their hand hovering over the grip so at the beep you just close your hand and draw.

 

Is this the progression of the sport? Hands relaxed at sides, was to complicated so we moved to wrists below belt. And now it's just don't touch the gun. Do we eventually move to low ready starts? The sport seems to be getting dumbed down a little. 

 

I'm probably crazy. 

[driver8M3]

Do you also hate "anywhere" start positions?

 

It's a game. Unspecified hand position is good because most people don't practice it and mess it up. Once people get good at it, stage designers will come up with something new...like hands touching ears or ear-pro.

[broadside72]

Unless the first target is directly in front of you and it make sense to engage it from the draw, there is no benefit/drawback to specifying a hand position when you need to move enough to eat up a draw. 

[Dirty_J]

It’s a test of listening and reading comprehension. 
 

Considering how many folks ask “how many rounds” immediately following the reading of the WSB… I think it’s a proper challenge for most competitors.  

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

Do you also hate "anywhere" start positions?

 

It's a game. Unspecified hand position is good because most people don't practice it and mess it up. Once people get good at it, stage designers will come up with something new...like hands touching ears or ear-pro.

 

I don't really mind anywhere start positions. And really I'm fine with this if it pop's up here and there to throw you off your game or make you wish you thought of it. But, after 8 to 10 stages in a row it's kind of lame IMO.

 

4 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

It’s a test of listening and reading comprehension. 
 

Considering how many folks ask “how many rounds” immediately following the reading of the WSB… I think it’s a proper challenge for most competitors.  

 

For sure, the first stage someone wasn't allowed to start like that then got a reshoot. There was then some discussion about rules. The next stage pretty much everyone did it, and that continued until the end of the day. I think there where 10 stages starting like this. Kind of hard to miss at that point. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Unless the first target is directly in front of you and it make sense to engage it from the draw, there is no benefit/drawback to specifying a hand position when you need to move enough to eat up a draw. 

 

Not really the point. 

[GigG]

14 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

It’s a test of listening and reading comprehension. 
 

 

 

The problem is there is no penalty for starting with the incorrect hand position because the RO is supposed to start you.

[AKJD]

The less that’s specified the more freestyle it is.  

[Matt1911]

Most of the time I see someone try to “game it”, they screw it up and flub the stage. 

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Not really the point. 

Its exactly the point. When it makes no difference in the stage execution, what does it matter if your hands are are your sides, hovering over your gear or you have one finger in your nose and one thumb up your a$$?

[TaterHead]

I do think it was simpler when the default was hands relaxed at sides. If nothing was stated in the wsb, then you knew what was required. I still do just that if there is nothing in the wsb.  It’s always the same, muscle memory takes over and I can pay attention to other details.

[shred]

Sometime's IPSC's "freestyle starts after the beep" makes sense.  The RO demonstrates the start position and everyone does that.

 

I don't love 'anywhere' starts because it means you have to walk the stage way more than the five minutes given during a match.  If you were helping setup or delayed or whatever, you are SOL.  Moderately better than start positions optimized for a certain-handed shooter though. 

 

[IL-SIG]

6 of 12 stages didn’t stipulate a hand location. That is hardly almost all. Just sayin’…

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, IL-SIG said:

6 of 12 stages didn’t stipulate a hand location. That is hardly almost all. Just sayin’…

50 % seems like a lot still. It was lazy and boring

Edited May 17, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Its exactly the point. When it makes no difference in the stage execution, what does it matter if your hands are are your sides, hovering over your gear or you have one finger in your nose and one thumb up your a$$?

 

No it's 100% not my point.  

 

But I'll put you in the camp of move to all low ready starts. 

[IL-SIG]

I hear what you are saying. Just curious, did you submit any potential stages to the Match Director or volunteer on the set-up crew or as a range official?  People with great ideas on how stages should be set-up or how matches should be run can also be great volunteers. 

[Dirty_J]

30 minutes ago, IL-SIG said:

I hear what you are saying. Just curious, did you submit any potential stages to the Match Director or volunteer on the set-up crew or as a range official?  People with great ideas on how stages should be set-up or how matches should be run can also be great volunteers. 

Ahhhh. One of those “if you don’t volunteer, you cannot complain” folks.  

 

Working as staff is not a prerequisite for providing comment. 

[shred]

Good MD's survey the staff and shooters for feedback for next year's match too.

 

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

I hear what you are saying. Just curious, did you submit any potential stages to the Match Director or volunteer on the set-up crew or as a range official?  People with great ideas on how stages should be set-up or how matches should be run can also be great volunteers. 

 

Do I need to work every match I shoot? No matter how far away it is, even in a different area from where I live? 

 

This attitude of if you don't work X then your opinions don't count is really counter productive. You might think you're trying to recruit staff but that's not what's happening. And I'd bet you don't really think that anyway. This is usually just to talk down to others and ends up pushing help away. 

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, shred said:

Good MD's survey the staff and shooters for feedback for next year's match too.

 

 

Overall it was a vary good match, start positions are pretty minor and that's probably my biggest complaint of the match.

[motosapiens]

that seems like a lot of unspecified hand positions. Not sure I really care though. i just start in my regular 'hands at sides-ish' position in those situations because that's what I practice, and there is unlikely to be any advantage in hovering closer to the gun in a position that I don't practice.

 

Personally I specify the hand position in every stage I build, but I also try to change things up a bit. for example, Instead of 'hands on x's' I've typically gone to '1 hand on any X' to make it more even with pcc

[CHA-LEE]

As an MD myself who has to do the Stage WSB review and fixing for the submitted stages, defining hand positions is a commonly overlooked start position element that stage designers simply forget about. I have lost count of how many times I have needed to ask the stage designer "What is your desired hand position for the start?" because it was missing on the WSB.

 

Prior to the match the MD should proof read all of the stage WSB's to ensure that they are concise and complete. And no, NROI isn't going to catch it or correct it when you submit stages for approval. They are only assessing the stage from a legal perspective. You can get a horrible stage "Approved" by NROI simply because its legal.

[CHA-LEE]

I also want to point out that not specifying the hand position for the start ultimately ends up being an overall "Time Waster" from a match management perspective. It triggers a Q&A process between Competitors and Staff to clarify what can or can't be done with the hands because its not defined. Someone asking about the hand position may not seem like a significant time wasting event, but when it happens 970239020983402834 times through the match it absolutely does.

 

As an MD my goal is to provide a Fun, Fair and Safe match. A component in achieving these goals is to produce a Stage Product which is easily understood and consumed. Vague WSB's with missing requirements like hand positions does not promote achieving those goals.

 

In the end, people are either committed to doing whatever it takes to do the job correctly or rely on the "I am just a volunteer" excuse to justify deploying a substandard effort. People usually take offense to this stance but I honestly don't care. I have always been the camp of "Do the job right or don't do the job". If that hurts your feelings then look in the mirror because that is the root cause of the issue.

[RJH]

Interesting that a hand position at start subject just came up.

 

I was shooting a match the other day and we were looking for the hand position in the WSB, I can't remember how it ended up, but that's not the important part.

 

One of the other shooters there happened to mention that if the WSB didn't say what the hand location was you could start with your hand on the gun. I told him that was not correct.

 

He then mention that he had just shot one of the biggest matches in the country a week or so before and an ro there told that the WSB had to specify the hand location, because otherwise you could start with your hand on the gun. I told him that ro was incorrect. He didn't want to believe some local yokel, so I had to dig around on my phone and find the rule.

 

Just one of the many times when it pays to know the rules, and never trust an ro LOL

 

PS this is all discussing pistols, obviously you start with your hand on a PCC

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

PS this is all discussing pistols, obviously you start with your hand on a PCC

that's one reason I *always* specify hand position, because then I also specify pcc position. Otherwise, you end up with dirty cheating gamer rifle shooters starting with a shouldered rifle aimed at the first target.