Limited Optics - Minor Only vs. Major/Minor scoring

[rishii]

I vote for major/minor

so what if no one makes a 40 optics ready limited gun, there are thousands existing guns out there that with a simple replacing the rear sight with a dovetail mount could play, I hope EGW is cranking out their bomar cut mount because I see them selling a bunch of them.

limited is one of the two race gun divisions, open being the other, if minor is such an advantage, why doesn’t open minor dominate the sport and lastly I’d like to keep the mags at 140, 9mm already has a capacity advantage over 40, what make it more complex then it already is.

 

btw I think the reason limited is dying has more to do with aging than anything else, quite simply a lot of us have a hard time seeing our sights, allowing dot on our old limited guns could see a revival in limited.

[3gunDMD]

2 minutes ago, rishii said:

I vote for major/minor

so what if no one makes a 40 optics ready limited gun, there are thousands existing guns out there that with a simple replacing the rear sight with a dovetail mount could play, I hope EGW is cranking out their bomar cut mount because I see them selling a bunch of them.

limited is one of the two race gun divisions, open being the other, if minor is such an advantage, why doesn’t open minor dominate the sport and lastly I’d like to keep the mags at 140, 9mm already has a capacity advantage over 40, what make it more complex then it already is.

 

btw I think the reason limited is dying has more to do with aging than anything else, quite simply a lot of us have a hard time seeing our sights, allowing dot on our old limited guns could see a revival in limited.

Is anybody saying that minor is an advantage?  I'd argue the opposite.  

Edited February 18, 2023 by 3gunDMD

[usmc1974]

25 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 

So you are saying there may be some demand for .40...

Remind me of that scene from dumb and dumber when he asked a girl if she would go out with him, and she said not a million and one chance. And he said so there is a chance......

[deerslayer]

5 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

Remind me of that scene from dumb and dumber when he asked a girl if she would go out with him, and she said not a million and one chance. And he said so there is a chance......

 

I would try .40 with a slide dot, but I wouldn't mill a gun for a provisional division, especially a .40 gun.   

Edited February 18, 2023 by deerslayer

[Micah]

I voted for major/minor. Going into divisions with major scoring added an additional challenge if I wanted to shoot with my prod gun. I feel as though if Limited Optics was minor only, it could turn into a fancy carry optics division. Kinda like how L10 was fancy prod back when I was competing.

[MHicks]

How sturdy are the dovetail mounts? I had already seen some claims that they flex more then a slide milled and can break more easily. Seems like that would be more possible with a major gun.

I just got the news that my first slide getting milled is ready and should have it soon to try CO.

[Dazhi]

Can anyone quantify the "high demand" of 2011's wanting to shoot minor with a dot?  Is it 20,000 guns a year? 5,000 a year? or 1,000 a year?

 

Not sure how many thousands of plastic guns are being manufactured a year but IPSC still went ahead to remove the "Production Optics Light" division 3 years after it was introduced as a provisional division.  

[konkapot]

The more I read on this issue here and elsewhere, my general observation the bottom line is "I want to shoot a 2011 with a dot in 9mm." Bottom line, full stop.

 

They don't want to shoot Open minor, and they sure as heck don't want anyone shooting Major in this division. 

 

Everything else is just obfuscation. "Nils did this" and "40 is dead/dying" and 'My $3000 2011 won't give me an advantage" are all just rationalizations. 

 

*I* want to do what *I* want to do and *I* want a safe space to do it. And although *I* am not competitive, *I* am more comfortable shooting against plastic guns than shooting against people who shoot major. 

[BadShot]

Here are the results of the polling:

 

Survey Results - 2022 Proposed Provisional Divisions/Equipment Changes - USPSA Competition Rules - USPSA.ORG

Edited February 18, 2023 by BadShot

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, Rich406 said:

40 is a dead caliber. USPSA should look to the future, not dwell on the past. 

like they do with 38 super ?

 

[Rich406]

21 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

like they do with 38 super ?

 

38 is in an already existing division. 
 

Edit actually, I take that back. The point of open is you can pretty much use whatever you want. That’s not the same as LO

Edited February 18, 2023 by Rich406

[MikeRussell]

41 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

 The point of open is you can pretty much use whatever you want. That’s not the same as LO

 

And the point of Limited was do whatever you want but no comp and no dot. So the natural progression to LO would be keep the same rules as Limited, just add a dot. It's a pretty simple concept. 

[Rich406]

1 minute ago, MikeRussell said:

 

And the point of Limited was do whatever you want but no comp and no dot. So the natural progression to LO would be keep the same rules as Limited, just add a dot. It's a pretty simple concept. 

Using limited in the name is a mistake, the same way they used carry in carry optics. There are no carry guns in co, but since the name contains carry, people get hung up on it.  “Carry optics” is quite frankly a stupid name for a division that has never revolved around anything carry….
 

same problem with using limited in the name of LO, when the initial division appendix did not exactly align with the limited appendix. People will get hung up on the differences..

[RJH]

Since there are absolutely 0 limited optics guns yet, what they are is still up in the air. Locking future membership into a caliber that has less sales than 45 is stupid. They let 9mm back in open for a reason, 38 sc is expensive. No reason to tie a new division to another dieing caliber 

 

The future is now. Also, learn to aim

[MikeRussell]

1 hour ago, Rich406 said:

Using limited in the name is a mistake, the same way they used carry in carry optics. There are no carry guns in co, but since the name contains carry, people get hung up on it.  “Carry optics” is quite frankly a stupid name for a division that has never revolved around anything carry….

Yeah, there's no "carry" anything in USPSA, for that you need to go IDPA. However, this last year at the Nats at CMP during the members' meetings, it was discussed renaming Prod to "Carry Irons" and having it mimic CO, but just in iron sight form. More people liked the idea of just bumping Prod to 15 rounds to mimic IPSC. Which honestly, I'd be for cutting CO back to mimic Prod Optics, knocking it back to 15 rounds (with the move for Prod up to 15). Then if you wanted to shoot your currently spec'd out CO gun with all the weight, light, extra BS then you'd just add a magwell and do it in LO (keeping major/minor scoring). Which is a suggestion I wrote in on the surveys.

[MikeRussell]

20 minutes ago, RJH said:

Since there are absolutely 0 limited optics guns yet, what they are is still up in the air. Locking future membership into a caliber that has less sales than 45 is stupid. They let 9mm back in open for a reason, 38 sc is expensive. No reason to tie a new division to another dieing caliber 

 

The future is now. Also, learn to aim

 

If it's going to die, then allow the membership to decide with participation numbers. Then the org doesn't need to do anything, if people don't want to shoot 40 then they won't. Don't blame me because you don't like recoil. Hell, I'd like a super major breakout where I shoot my 200+ PF 10mm loads in Limited...but too many 9mm fans that can't handle the recoil would complain about supermajor getting 5 points for As & Cs and 3 points for Ds. 

[RJH]

Just now, MikeRussell said:

 

If it's going to die, then allow the membership to decide with participation numbers. Then the org doesn't need to do anything, if people don't want to shoot 40 then they won't. Don't blame me because you don't like recoil. Hell, I'd like a super major breakout where I shoot my 200+ PF 10mm loads in Limited...but too many 9mm fans that can't handle the recoil would complain about supermajor getting 5 points for As & Cs and 3 points for Ds. 

 

Hell, the membership already voted. I honestly don't know why this is even a conversation anymore. 

 

Were you one of the ones wanting a vote, until the results came out 

 

PS 200pf out of a lim gun is still pretty weak sauce, my carry ammo is 212pf out of my actual sub 4" carry gun. And my linebaugh is about 560 pf

[MikeRussell]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

Were you one of the ones wanting a vote, until the results came out 

 

No, I was one of the ones that stated if it's going to be "Limited" it should be Major/Minor or just allow SAO in CO...but if it is minor only, I'd just throw a magwell on an already CO legal gun just to get classified then probably not shoot the division again.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, MikeRussell said:

 

No, I was one of the ones that stated if it's going to be "Limited" it should be Major/Minor or just allow SAO in CO...but if it is minor only, I'd just throw a magwell on an already CO legal gun just to get classified then probably not shoot the division again.

 

I do think Sao in co is the best answer. I even wrote it in in the survey. 

 

But LO minor only is a good second option 

[Boomstick303]

9 hours ago, Rich406 said:

sound like a fudd..

 

Sound Like?

[sandflea316]

11 hours ago, MikeRussell said:

 

And the point of Limited was do whatever you want but no comp and no dot. So the natural progression to LO would be keep the same rules as Limited, just add a dot. It's a pretty simple concept. 

Exactly 

[lroy]

Depends on if you think this has been proposed because of how popular 40cal optic pistols have become.

[scroadkill]

23 hours ago, Rich406 said:

40 is a dead caliber. USPSA should look to the future, not dwell on the past. 

I love 40.. I'm picking up brass and projectiles now on sale from shooters moving to other divisions for 1/2 the price .. cutting my cost to reload to sub 9mm. just saying.

 

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, lroy said:

Depends on if you think this has been proposed because of how popular 40cal optic pistols have become.

Caliber or popularity, or lack thereof, of a cartridge is irrelevant. Set division requirements on the largest similar firearm platform possible and let the competitors find the best combination.  

[motosapiens]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:24 AM, Rich406 said:

Your suggestions should at least make sense from a competitive viewpoint. A “I don’t care” that my suggestion doesn’t make sense adds nothing other than make you sound like a fudd..

minor never really makes sense for normal adults when you have a choice. That's the way it is supposed to be.

if you don't think 28 rounds is enough to overcome minor, then shoot major....