Limited Optics - Minor Only vs. Major/Minor scoring

[RJH]

1 minute ago, vgdvc said:

Ah yes, horrible idea. Because minor/major never had/has a place in USPSA.

 

"Had" is the operative term here LOL.

 

This stuff has been settled for months. Nobody but those four people are interested in shooting limited optics major. We had a vote, major lost, two different times if I remember correctly.

 

People with limited major guns can still shoot them in limited if they want the scoring advantage. Limited optics shares a lot with limited but not everything, and having the name limited optics doesn't mean it has to share everything. That's just something people read into, as they forgot what the term "limited" means. In limited optics, one of the things that the guns are "limited" to is, minor scoring. 

[outerlimits]

sadly, uspsa has become a minor optic sport.

[Rich406]

49 minutes ago, vgdvc said:

Sure, there is plenty of demand for 9mm minor.  Without the option of allowing major scoring how do you know what demand there would be for that 

  How can it possibly be a detriment to allow both power factors to compete side by side? Again, that's the whole purpose of minor/ major scoring. Minor equals slightly more round capacity and less recoil to contend with but less power therefore more points down outside the A zone..  Major is more recoil/power to contend with but less penalization outside the a zone for a miss. Pick how you want to play the game and run with it.

 Put an adapter plate on a .40 limited gun and you have it inexpensive optics ready. Have someone like Battleworx cut your slide and have a more professional look to it.

 

The major minor debate for LO is not the same as in SS. The 3-4 extra rounds is in no way worth shooting minor scoring. Minor is a 5% handicap. anyone serious would shoot major.  
 

Getting a .40 2011 optics ready gun would be limited to a small handful of custom builders.  No major manufacturer is willing to make anything but 9mm. 
 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Rich406

[vgdvc]

1 hour ago, outerlimits said:

sadly, uspsa has become a minor optic sport.

You could be correct. If that is the case they might as well be real and take the "P" out of USPSA. It defeats the purpose of power factor and any reality it is supposed to represent which was the purpose of minor/ major scoring. If it morphs into what you are saying things have a way of reverting back to the means at some point.

[lroy]

It's interesting how wildly unrepresentative this forum is of uspsa members

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, vgdvc said:

You could be correct. If that is the case they might as well be real and take the "P" out of USPSA. It defeats the purpose of power factor and any reality it is supposed to represent which was the purpose of minor/ major scoring. If it morphs into what you are saying things have a way of reverting back to the means at some point.

 

There are a lot of things that make uspsa less practical, minor optics guns aren't on my list. In fact I'd say a CO gun is more practical than a limited or open gun. 

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, Rich406 said:

‘if anything the 10 months since I made this post have shown there is plenty of demand to shoot a 9mm 2011 with an optic in USPSA. 

this is plainly true. Perhaps coincidentally, since I was young there seems to be a dramatic increase in boys deciding they are really girls. 

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, vgdvc said:

Sure, there is plenty of demand for 9mm minor.  Without the option of allowing major scoring how do you know what demand there would be for that 

  How can it possibly be a detriment to allow both power factors to compete side by side? Again, that's the whole purpose of minor/ major scoring. Minor equals slightly more round capacity and less recoil to contend with but less power therefore more points down outside the A zone..  Major is more recoil/power to contend with but less penalization outside the a zone for a miss. Pick how you want to play the game and run with it.

 Put an adapter plate on a .40 limited gun and you have it inexpensive optics ready. Have someone like Battleworx cut your slide and have a more professional look to it.

 

 

I'm one of the 61 people here who voted for major/minor in LO and I wrote my AD about it as well, but I was always pretty sure it was going to be minor only because most people just want easy, and minor is easier.

 

The problem with major/minor is that it really means only major will be competitive. If you have ever shot both, you are aware that the extra recoil doesn't really make much difference for an adult. So all those 9mm 2011's would have basically been paperweights, because the same people that only want easy will cry about needing reparations if they have a 3-5% scoring disadvantage.

 

At any rate, I invested the princely sum of $60 in a dovetail optic mount for my limited gun. In initial testing it appears to be pretty darned fun shooting 40 minor. I'll let you know after a few matches if i'm going to stick with it or go back to CO and a shadow2

[RJH]

I don't know, if anything shooting major makes things way easier. If it didn't people wouldn't be willing to put up with the added expense  and lower round count to shoot it.

 

 

Minor is tougher and more practical because you have to shoot A's, and in the food court accuracy matters most, not the fallacy of handgun stopping power

[RJH]

2 hours ago, lroy said:

It's interesting how wildly unrepresentative this forum is of uspsa members

 

 

I think a lot of that has to do with the average age here of about 70

 

I'm a young guy on this board of about 48. I hate technology and that's why I stay here versus Instagram. But, even I understand 9 mm is the future. Hell, it ain't the future, it's the now

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I'm one of the 61 people here who voted for major/minor in LO and I wrote my AD about it as well, but I was always pretty sure it was going to be minor only because most people just want easy, and minor is easier.

 

The problem with major/minor is that it really means only major will be competitive. If you have ever shot both, you are aware that the extra recoil doesn't really make much difference for an adult. So all those 9mm 2011's would have basically been paperweights, because the same people that only want easy will cry about needing reparations if they have a 3-5% scoring disadvantage.

 

 

To me these sentences seem at odds with each other. How can recoil not really make much difference, but you get more points for worse accuracy and still call that harder?

 

The fact that the recoil isn't making much difference is enough to want to get rid of major for the more challenging accuracy standard or minor. 

[Boomstick303]

13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

To me these sentences seem at odds with each other. How can recoil not really make much difference, but you get more points for worse accuracy and still call that harder?

 

40 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

this is plainly true. Perhaps coincidentally, since I was young there seems to be a dramatic increase in boys deciding they are really girls. 

 

Or make you a boy or a girl depending on which PF you choose to shoot.

[motosapiens]

33 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

To me these sentences seem at odds with each other. How can recoil not really make much difference, but you get more points for worse accuracy and still call that harder?

 

The fact that the recoil isn't making much difference is enough to want to get rid of major for the more challenging accuracy standard or minor. 

'for an adult'.... I probably should have said 'for a normal healthy adult who practices'. 

 

Which statement would you disagree with?  Is shooting minor not easier? Is the difference in recoil actually a significant issue for normal adults who practice? Or are they both true?

 

Also 'easy' doesn't just mean the shooting.... it means the other stuff too, like finding a decent gun, reloading ammo, etc.... With minor, anyone who lacks commitment can just buy a gun, buy some ammo, skip practicing, and go shoot and have fun. That seems to be what people want.

Edited December 11, 2023 by motosapiens

[lroy]

In my day we had to walk up hill, both ways to shoot a match!

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, lroy said:

In my day we had to walk up hill, both ways to shoot a match!

exactly..... kids these days are too soft. we need to bring back rhodesian walls.

[Boomstick303]

41 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

That seems to be what people want.

 

It would seem that 97% - 98% of people who shoot USPSA currently are consumers, and that is exactly what they want.  Fortunate or unfortunate as that may seem.  

[whan]

31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

'for an adult'.... I probably should have said 'for a normal healthy adult who practices'. 

 

Which statement would you disagree with?  Is shooting minor not easier? Is the difference in recoil actually a significant issue for normal adults who practice? Or are they both true?

 

Also 'easy' doesn't just mean the shooting.... it means the other stuff too, like finding a decent gun, reloading ammo, etc.... With minor, anyone who lacks commitment can just buy a gun, buy some ammo, skip practicing, and go shoot and have fun. That seems to be what people want.

 

I mean, I'd think that having easier logistics like competitive out of box guns, factory ammo, etc. are objectively good things. USPSA isn't supposed to be Formula 1, where gear development is a key performance component of the sport IMO.

 

Things have pretty much always gotten easier for each generation since the beginning of time. Every generation probably has complained that the ones after it "are soft". From 1880s people using horse and buggies complaining that 1920s people have Ford Model T cars, to 1920s people complaining that 1960s people have 200hp+ cars with electric starters and highway systems, to 1960s people complaining that 2000s people have fuel injected automatic cars that are reliable, etc. 

[Racinready300ex]

44 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

'for an adult'.... I probably should have said 'for a normal healthy adult who practices'. 

 

Which statement would you disagree with?  Is shooting minor not easier? Is the difference in recoil actually a significant issue for normal adults who practice? Or are they both true?

 

Also 'easy' doesn't just mean the shooting.... it means the other stuff too, like finding a decent gun, reloading ammo, etc.... With minor, anyone who lacks commitment can just buy a gun, buy some ammo, skip practicing, and go shoot and have fun. That seems to be what people want.

 

Controlling the recoil of a minor gun is easier, the accuracy standard of major is also easier.

 

Anyone questioning manhood based on division choices that don't align with there own is projecting. 

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Anyone questioning manhood based on division choices that don't align with there own is projecting. 

lol, I feel bad about hurting the feelings of people who are scared of major, but not bad enough to stop doing it....

 

at any rate, it doesn't really matter.... people want minor, so minor is what they get. I'm not complaining at all, minor works for me too since I shoot alot of alphas.

Edited December 11, 2023 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

lol, I feel bad about hurting the feelings of people who are scared of major, but not bad enough to stop doing it....

 

at any rate, it doesn't really matter.... people want minor, so minor is what they get. I'm not complaining at all, minor works for me too since I shoot alot of alphas.

 

Your troll game is pretty soft, but keep up after it. 

[motosapiens]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

Your troll game is pretty soft, but keep up after it. 

it seems to be working... you can't seem to avoid carefully parsing my posts looking for something to take offense at.

 

Anyway, limited optics looks like it's going to more successful than I would have imagined. I'm very surprised by the number of non-competitive gun enthusiasts who are running out and buying stacks of 9mm 2011's. And the one example I own (a free staccato P) runs absolutely flawlessly right out of the box, which also somewhat surprises me. Probably the two phenomena are related. At any rate it seems like a real stroke of marketing genius.

[whan]

13 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

It would seem that 97% - 98% of people who shoot USPSA currently are consumers, and that is exactly what they want.  Fortunate or unfortunate as that may seem.  

 

I'd argue it's fortunate. A tiny percentage of USPSA shooters are pros who actually spend most their time dedicated to it, the rest of us are hobbyists doing it for fun. For people who are already working 60+ hours a week or have young kids, of course most of them are going to pick being able to use easy to find guns + factory ammo and being able to get out and shoot matches easier, vs. waiting for a custom .40 2011 and spending extra time loading ammo.

 

FWIW I voted to keep LO as minor only (and will be moving there from CO once my gun is built). It's mainly because I have no desire to load ammo - sorting through brass, cleaning, buying components, developing a load, QC'ing, etc. I don't enjoy it, and it's just another chore (like cleaning guns) and would rather be dry-firing instead. I'd rather be able to just get bulk 9mm shipped to my house at 25CPR and just shoot

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

it seems to be working... you can't seem to avoid carefully parsing my posts looking for something to take offense at.

 

Anyway, limited optics looks like it's going to more successful than I would have imagined. I'm very surprised by the number of non-competitive gun enthusiasts who are running out and buying stacks of 9mm 2011's. And the one example I own (a free staccato P) runs absolutely flawlessly right out of the box, which also somewhat surprises me. Probably the two phenomena are related. At any rate it seems like a real stroke of marketing genius.

 

I'm far from offended. I pretty much count on a post from you to chime in with who you think is weak. It's your card and you play it, gotta repect that right?

 

I'm not at all surprised LO is doing well. These guns are immensely popular outside of our world. 40's just aren't, it might suck but given the market it'd of been silly to build a division around something no one is using. But I'm still not sure if there is room for two so similar divisions in our game. I think CO will probably die out pretty quickly, so if you like it enjoy it while you can. 

[whan]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm far from offended. I pretty much count on a post from you to chime in with who you think is weak. It's your card and you play it, gotta repect that right?

 

I'm not at all surprised LO is doing well. These guns are immensely popular outside of our world. 40's just aren't, it might suck but given the market it'd of been silly to build a division around something no one is using. But I'm still not sure if there is room for two so similar divisions in our game. I think CO will probably die out pretty quickly, so if you like it enjoy it while you can. 

 

I bet CO actually will still be pretty popular, even in the current iteration where they are indeed very similar divisions. In speaking with most of our CO heat at my local club (biggest matches at 130+ people per), most are planning to stick with CO - it's actually that they see not a lot of reason to go to LO since it's so similar. 

 

That said, I do think once LO becomes final, CO should be moved to a more restrictive ruleset using 15 round capacity (to match the likely Prod 15), and a box that effectively prohibits thumb rest slide stops. At least then they'll be reasonably different divisions

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm far from offended. I pretty much count on a post from you to chime in with who you think is weak. It's your card and you play it, gotta repect that right?

 

I'm not at all surprised LO is doing well. These guns are immensely popular outside of our world. 40's just aren't, it might suck but given the market it'd of been silly to build a division around something no one is using. But I'm still not sure if there is room for two so similar divisions in our game. I think CO will probably die out pretty quickly, so if you like it enjoy it while you can. 

? i didn't say anything about anyone being weak. 

 

Anyway, I know it's fun to be offended and focus on individuals, but I'd rather talk about the topic, and you bring up an interesting one that I agree with. It seems to me that CO and LO are far too similar right now, and both allow mods that take them pretty far from practical guns that people actually carry. I don't know what the acceptable answer is. Obviously, people would weep and wail if you made any changes to CO to differentiate it (such as shorter mags, and a more practical weight limit). If I were king I would just roll CO into LO and create an entirely new division with short mags and a lighter weight, and I would also ditch the requirement for an optic.

 

But i don't even really know what division I'm going to shoot next year at this point. Maybe after shooting LO for a few matches with my old limited equipment I'll have a better idea of whether that's the right path forward, or just keep shooting CO.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by motosapiens