Single Stack Div. shooting major -and- minor?

[eboggs]

Still relatively new to the USPSA world and have spent my time in CO or Production up until now. I recently picked up a Springfield Trophy Match and want to shoot a bit of SS this coming season. 

 

I've seen a lot of people running minor (mostly 9mm) in SS, and speaking with some of these shooters, I get answers from, "Major is the way to go," to "Minor is just as competitive now," to "well, it depends on the match."

 

My question is, do any of you -or is it even a thing- to have a Major -and- Minor 1911, or would you keep your platforms the same? I'm assuming, but I can't find it in the rulebook, that you wouldn't be able to flip flop depending on stage between major and minor SS guns...?

 

I also -maybe- see the benefit of training with a 9mm 1911, but shooting your 45acp 1911 in competition...

 

Any thoughts on this?  ...Or am I overthinking this and just sound stupid? 

Edited February 11, 2022 by eboggs

[tomjerry1]

Rule book at uspsa.org, I'm not a big SS shooter, but it depends on how good a shooter you are. If you are accurate and fast, 9mm is probably the way to go, get the extra rounds, less recoil, otherwise 40 and above, the scoring is better. If you use 40, you can load for both minor and major power factor. 

[Artemas]

Well since you already bought the gun...  Shoot what you like and work the advantages that you have for now

It really doesn't matter until you are trying to compete with very tight percentages

 

Major seems to be the current favorite within SS.

Look at the results for Locap 2021 nationals. The top 18 in SS were running major PF.

If we go a bit apples to oranges however, 7 of the top ten overall were shooting minor (production) and the other 3 were L10. The top SS shooter is 7% below the top production shooter. 8 round guns leave you at the absolute mercy of stage design.

 

You can changes guns between matches, but not during unless you want to end up in open. It is not unheard of at local matches anyhow for people to bring a minor and major gun and only decide which to shoot after walking the stages. Im not sure it's really worth that much aggravation though.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Artemas

[zzt]

You already have the gun.  So shoot it. IMO, it is not a good idea to 'train' for matches by shooting something other than what you'll use in the match.

 

If you are getting 92~95% of the available points on a stage, major vs. minor becomes a question of capacity.  You only have 8 shots in major, so you have to be more careful.  That inevitably means you are not shooting as fast as you might in CO.  One miss on an array and you have to decide whether to shoot the 9th round (8+1 Start) or do a standing reload.  Either will cost you time.   Starting with 10+1 lets you press harder, especially on steel.  

 

If you are shooting mostly As you are better off with 9mm minor SS.  Less recoil, less muzzle rise and you can press hander.  If 1/3 are Charlies you are better off going major.

[gethirt]

Check out the book “Thinking Practical Shooting” by Saul Krisch. Regarding scoring he explains it pretty well. Really high hit factor stages are a little forgiving on points but not on time. Lower hit factor stages are more forgiving on time, and the points matter more. High hit factor stages are also not all that common. Rarely do you see a match where all the stages are above an 8 hit factor, even for the open guys. The majority of matches and stages will be relatively low hit factor affairs, especially for SS shooters. 
 

Major is the way to go. 71% of the folks who went to nationals this year shot major.  The additional magazine capacity that you get for minor just does not make up for the massive difference in points that you get from shooting major. Once you get a decent skill set for stage planning the vast majority of your reloads will be done on the move, so two extra rounds just don’t make that much of a difference. I can count on one hand the number of times I had to do a standing reload that I wouldn’t have had to do with a minor gun. Even then it was because I screwed up, not because of the stage. 
 

I compete with a .45, primarily because I have a ton of large pistol primers and I can still buy them from time to time. I think that shooting.40 is actually better because it is cheaper to shoot and easier to reload for. The mag changes are also slightly more forgiving because your mags are partially downloaded when shooting major so they will seat a little easier. 
 

And as previously stated, you can’t change guns stage by stage. Stick with major. Hope that helps. 

[belus]

I enjoy SS and have both minor and major guns. The breakdown is actually a 9mm, a 40sw, a 9mm with an extra 40sw barrel fitted, and a 40sw build in progress. I've sold all my 45 stuff because reloading is simpler without it.

 

If there aren't many SS shooters in your local area then minor can make more sense for a better comparison against the Production field. You can learn from how they break down stages.  On classifiers Major generally has an advantage because round counts are limited and HFs are high. Minor is definitely more convenient if you don't reload.

 

A nice thing about a 45 1911 is that every sport will have a place for it. It's the classic standardized benchmark.

 

Using a different gun for practice can make sense, depending on how you practice and how similar the guns are. It's not that useful for grip and trigger control, the two most important parts of live fire practice. But it can help you not cheat when working on movement and transitions, though an Airsoft gun also has that benefit even more cheaply.

 

[konkapot]

I've tried over the years training with a different gun than my match/duty gun and it's never worked out in any meaningful way. Tried it in limited, production, and singlestack. 

[eboggs]

Appreciate the feedback everyone, sounds like I’ll just pick up another 45 for a backup. The new Springfield loaded target 45 is pretty close to the Trophy Match, would send it off to be checkered, but other than that almost a twin. 

[ttolliver]

The one point that needs to be hammered home is that SS major is simply harder.

 

The number of 8 round arrays is one part of it. The number of standing reloads you have is a matter of skill  but at any skill level I'd hazard a guess over time you'll have 3 times the standing reloads with major than minor. And even though stage breakdowns aren't that hard in general, you nearly always have more options with 10 rounds.

 

Here's a perfect example. When firing at a swinger that's fast or far, I will consider throwing 3 rounds at it to avoid a mike. I essentially always have that option with 10 round magazines.

 

I also find the argument that you should only shoot minor if you're accurate interesting. True, if you can shoot all alphas there's no scoring difference. But what about the 80% of us who scatter a few around? I'd say if your skill level is such that you occasionally need makeup shots think about those 8 round arrays and standing reloads again.

 

I think the prior comment about shooting 8 round guns more carefully is spot on. You will lose speed to carefulness to avoid standing reloads, standing reloads when they happen anyway, more reloads in general, and slightly more complicated stage breakdowns a bit of the time. Once you've been around the sport a while you'll develop an appreciation for scoring favoring speed slightly over accuracy. And for average shooters there is just so much about the 8 round SS that erodes speed.

 

As for what the top nationals shooters do? Well, they all have speed and accuracy well in hand. They shoot major because if they do drop a C onto the target they need that extra point.

 

Sorry for the long post. I was just surprised to see so many jump on the 8 round bandwagon that I felt a need to balance it out.

 

At the end of the day shooting either is a fun day at the range. Shoot what you've got and have fun. But I'll always recommend minor SS shooters as much more forgiving. Major to me is what you shoot later when you're experienced and looking for a challenge to push yourself a little. 

[Racinready300ex]

I shot SS for one full season. The first half I shot major and the second half I shot minor. The guns where 40, so I shot the same guns for both and just loaded hotter. 

 

One observation I had was running major the first half of the year at club matches I was consistently beating a local guy who was a long time A class open shooter and vary consistent. I'd typically get him by just a few percent. After switching to minor he started beating me by a couple percent. Not exactly scientific but it seemed overall I was doing better with major. 

 

I only shot major in the beginning because I was chasing classification. I liked minor better, it was easier on me. I'll probably shoot some more SS here in the near future but this time I'll go 9mm and only do minor. Not because I think it's better, but because that's what I want to do. That's really all the reason you should need. Do what you think is fun. 

[Faith02]

Since you have the gun already, just focus on shooting, you can also get another 45. for a backup, that would be nice !

[cnote]

As a upper B / lower A class shooter in 4 divisions, I find major scoring the advantage.  I can go faster not worrying about charlies and wind up shooting about 93% of the points in a match. A/C on every target gets you 90% of points available. That would significantly drop with minor scoring as would my results.  The only time i need to slow down is in an array with multiple (4-6) steel.  But then again, I'm just an average shooter getting older every day

[jcc7x7]

Nationals will always favor major in SS, just the way it is.

 

Most local matches will favor 10 round guns.

 

If you plan on shooting a lot of level 2, 3 and National matches stick HARD on Major ( SS special matches)

If you're mostly going to shoot local stuff and a level 2 once or twice a year , stick with minor.

 

At least that's whay I've seen for the last 10 years or so.

[KAYZER]

2ct's

 

Unless your are nationally competitive or plan to shoot IPSC - it's about the same. As far as i've seen most USPA is just clusters of shots. 

Thing is when stages become more technical and more steel is in the game, that extra rounds are really handy. I shoot aboput 95% of available point in ipsc matches, I take that extra rounds. 

 

For example: you can drive down a activator with 2X 9MM and still have enough rounds for that swinger to shoot 3X. 

 

 

[Kwontanamo]

I have friends who shoot both major (.45 ACP or even 40SW) to minor (9mm). If they're shooting minor its because they want to take the opportunity during local matches to hammer in the basics and force themselves to get "A zone hits. They'll break out the major gun about a week or 2 before a major match. 

[Climbhard]

I've thought about this major / minor SS a lot.  I think it boils down to this.

 

A/C in major is 90% of point.

A/C in minor is 80% of points.

Very few people (if any) can or will short a stage minor 10% faster than they would shooting major.  Say its a 28 round 18 second stage shooting major.   Can you really shoot it 1.8 sec fastor over 28 rounds?  Thats .065 seconds per shot.  .20 versus .265 splits.  If youre say an A or better the difference really isnt that much since a number of targets on a stage will be "hammer as fast as I pull the trigger" anway.  The split difference on those target that require a more precise sight picture isnt that much faster.

 

Who benefits from minor then? People who MISS STEEL.  Steel is the great equalizer in SS.  Most shooting positions at L2 or higher are 8 rounds with at least one steel.  Miss that one shot (major) and it slidelock and/or standing reload.  That's where Minor saves your score.  Also, where there is a lot of steel in a shooting position minor gives you the option to shoot he steel more aggressively saving significant time.

 

So decide what your strength  / weakness is or shoot the gun you have knowing how to maximize its competitive advantage.  

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Climbhard said:

Who benefits from minor then? People who MISS STEEL.  Steel is the great equalizer in SS.  Most shooting positions at L2 or higher are 8 rounds with at least one steel. 

 

Honestly, I really don't see all that many 8 round positions at big matches (A1, A2 and nationals) that can't easily be broken up other ways, but I do agree that if you don't have the discipline to hit steel when you need to, minor can be a helpful crutch until you learn to hit stuff.

 

Nils shoots major in SS, and that's good enough for me. If I thought I was at a disadvantage, I'd learn to reload faster and hit steel more reliably so it wouldn't be a disadvantage anymore. The longer and harder the shots get (12-20 yard partials, for example), the more important those extra points become.

[shred]

I shot SS minor extensively-- USPSA Areas (won one), nationals, hundreds of club and L2 matches, IPSC Pan Americans (Silver & Gold medals) and a World Shoot.

I really like shooting SS minor.  Accurate, 9 brass is free, bullets are cheap and the recoil is light.  Easy to race against Production shooters.

But..

All that said, Major has an advantage in SS at the top of the game.  It's not huge like other divisions, but except in rare cases it's there.  

 

Contrary to popular belief, a good shooter can shoot a Major SS faster than minor on a set of targets, because they can take so many more Charlies and when targets get far and partial like in big matches, there are more and more times when that works out.

 

For the OP starting out, don't worry about it-- shooting Minor won't hold you back until you get way up the classifications (btw, a Major gun does help there... very few classifiers have a 10-rd advantage, but a vast number have partial targets.)

 

[robertg5322]

I'm a painfully average shooter, and for me Major almost always results in higher scores.

 

Extra shots are nice when you need them, but taking them isn't free, every shot costs time. Not as much as a standing reload, but still not free.

[Dan Sierpina]

A couple years ago, a good friend and very good shooter, figured he would have to shoot 20% faster to equal minor to major. He couldn't do it, and he practiced a lot prior to the nationals. This friend was consistantly on the Super Squad when he was younger. 

This past weekend was the Western States Single Stack match. Nils won the match, shooting Major, TGO was 3rd shooting 87%. I was on the squad following many of the top shooters, TGO included. I heard "minor sucks" more than once when we caught up to that squad. 

The extra couple rounds for the most part were not a big adavantage given the stage designs. Short reloads negated the extra 2 rounds, as there was distance and props between groups of targets. 

[motosapiens]

6 minutes ago, Dan Sierpina said:

 

This past weekend was the Western States Single Stack match. Nils won the match, shooting Major, TGO was 3rd shooting 87%. I was on the squad following many of the top shooters, TGO included. I heard "minor sucks" more than once when we caught up to that squad. 

The extra couple rounds for the most part were not a big adavantage given the stage designs. Short reloads negated the extra 2 rounds, as there was distance and props between groups of targets. 

many many longer shots and ipsc targets and partial ipsc targets at wsssc. advantage major.

[Climbhard]

15 hours ago, Dan Sierpina said:

A couple years ago, a good friend and very good shooter, figured he would have to shoot 20% faster to equal minor to major. He couldn't do it, and he practiced a lot prior to the nationals.

Agree, time cant make up the point difference per my post.  When you throw in distant targets and partials minor gives up to many points and the top shooters dont miss steel so advantage major.

 

However, if steel is your hang up, I can see minor having an advantage.  My recollection of last years nationals was that many many positions were taking you to eight with more than one steel shoot.  I shot major, made sure I had an adequate sight picture and missed one, maybe two, shoots on steel the whole match.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Climbhard

[zzt]

I'm not challenging anyone's opinion, but I don't get major being any kind of handicap on most steel.  Hit a popper or a fall down with major and it is going down.  The only time I can see minor being an advantage on steel is on a Texas Star.  I've never shot minor in USPSA, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

When I hit steel I want it to go down fast.  I don't want to wait that 1/2 second some minor shooters do to see if it is actually going to fall, especially on forward falling steel.  

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

I'm not challenging anyone's opinion, but I don't get major being any kind of handicap on most steel.  Hit a popper or a fall down with major and it is going down.  The only time I can see minor being an advantage on steel is on a Texas Star.  I've never shot minor in USPSA, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

When I hit steel I want it to go down fast.  I don't want to wait that 1/2 second some minor shooters do to see if it is actually going to fall, especially on forward falling steel.  

good shooters don't 'see if it is actually going to fall'. They call a good shot and move on.

 

Minor isn't advantage for shooting steel, but it is an advantage if you miss steel alot. If you have 8 mini-poppers in a position, you don't have alot of room for error with major. This is something I rarely see at big matches, but I frequently see at local matches with lazy stage designers.

[robertg5322]

So you're going to be a hair slower making sure you don't miss steel, or you're going to be a hair slower making sure you don't have a pocketful of Charlie's in every stage...