Is this a Disqualification ("DQ")?

[SGT_Schultz]

5 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

I suppose it depends on one's interpretation of "manipulating" is when you look at the definition of "Handling" in the glossary as what the competitor here did was not casing/uncasing his PCC as that had already occurred so that exception does not apply here

 

Could he have won arbitration? Possibly

 

Manipulate's root word is "manibus" which means hand in Latin

 

He did nothing with his hands other than to hold the rifle in a vertical position and look up at it.

 

100% a trash call

[waktasz]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Why don’t they just come to the line with a bagged rifle, then unbag at the ‘Make Ready’ ?

 

You know, that old rule about never handling your firearm unless under the direction of the Range Officer.

That's what some did "in the beginning", and part of why people were annoyed with PCC. Their make ready and ULASC takes additional time and when there's a lot of PCC shooters at a match, it's noticable 

 

[outerlimits]

8 minutes ago, waktasz said:

That's what some did "in the beginning", and part of why people were annoyed with PCC. Their make ready and ULASC takes additional time and when there's a lot of PCC shooters at a match, it's noticable 

 

give 'em their own match and be done with it.

[CHA-LEE]

This makes me wonder why PCC shooters even invite the opportunity to be DQed by turning their Red Dot Off/On every stage. The vast majority of Red Dots sights used on PCC's these days have battery life spans in the tens of thousands of hours. Even when a battery needs replaced its usually only a couple of bucks so it makes zero sense to run the batteries until they die. Just keep the red dot on all the time and proactively replace the batteries once or twice a year and you are good to go.

 

I see this excessive red dot Off/On every stage run behavior from pistol shooters as well, so its not just the PCC shooters. When I shoot a red dot gun, I turn on the red dot when I unbag and holster up in the safe area then keep it on the whole time. Then when the shooting is done for the day, I turn the red dot off when I bag it up in the safe area. I also replace the battery every 6 months proactively to rule out any potential of a battery going dead in the middle of a match.

 

I think this excessive Off/On behavior is ingrained from back in the old C-More Slide Ride days as those sights would chew through batteries pretty fast. But we are way beyond that now with modern Red Dot technologies.

[twodownzero]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Why don’t they just come to the line with a bagged rifle, then unbag at the ‘Make Ready’ ?

 

You know, that old rule about never handling your firearm unless under the direction of the Range Officer.

 

That really ought to be the rule, but apparently it isn't.

 

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

This is not a bad idea, and probably the correct answer, but in the name of pushing shooters through in short time,  racks and tables are available, and many times preferred by the MD

 

Then a flagged gun should be a "dead" gun just like a holstered one.

 

1 hour ago, BlindAsABat said:

 

10.5.19 is a safety violation and can't be arbitrated unless there are exceptional circumstances. I'm not sure that exceptional circumstances could be claimed here. Here's the rule. Emphasis mine.

 

11.1.2 Access

Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire.Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

 

I would say that a DQ issued without an actual violation of the rule is pretty exceptional and should never happen.

 

I'm all for 100% enforcement of the rules, but there is nothing to enforce here.  If this is "gun handling," any unbagging of the gun outside of the safe area or the RO's direction is gun handling.  "Gun handling" is not interpreted by looking at where the shooter is looking.

 

"Handling," in the definitions section, strictly construed, would prohibit carrying the gun anywhere::

 

"The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible. Note exceptions for casing/uncasing PCC"

 

Certainly the act of "uncasing" (undefined) is over as soon there is trigger access, or in the most broad possible interpretation, once the gun is completely out of the case.  After which, "holding[] or gripping" is enough to constitute "handling," which triggers not just the rule quoted repeatedly in this thread, but 10.5.1 itself.  Since that result is absurd, it can't be right.

 

This seems like a raw deal for the guy. 

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Or perhaps you are both right. Any sport - rules should be enforced, any sport - referees have to prioritize where to focus their attention and what actions (bagging - scoring - starting next shooter) can be done simultaneously. 

 

I thought the context of my comment was pretty clear, but apparently people are confused. In responding to this:

Quote

 I think the rule intends to stop this process from being a distraction.  It may be completely safe to adjust optics, turn them on etc, it would be hard for the RO, to watch the PCC shooter "adjusting their optic" to make sure safety violations are not broken in that process while running other shooters.

 

I posted that I don't think the RO who is running shooters is generally going to be paying attention to, or distracted by what is going on in the pcc unbagging area. I certainly never said rules should not be enforced, but as an RO running shooters, I am not going to be paying any significant attention to the pcc unbagging area.We can hire another guy for that.

[motosapiens]

46 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

I think this excessive Off/On behavior is ingrained from back in the old C-More Slide Ride days as those sights would chew through batteries pretty fast. But we are way beyond that now with modern Red Dot technologies.

 

now you hurt my feelings, since our pcc's have c-mores. Luckily we don't shoot them at uspsa matches. (whew!)

[Eric802]

2 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

What exactly do you mean that you “would not see it”?  If you mean that you will intentionally not enforce an approved safety rule, you should turn in your RO card and stop officiating matches. By asserting definitively that you won’t see it, I interpret that to mean you will ignore a safety violation that may happen right in front of you. 
 

I highly encourage you to properly enforce all rules in the rule book regardless of what level match you are officiating. If you’re only selectively enforcing the rules that you think are important you should quit before someone gets hurt. Safety rules exist for all of our protection. 

This. To paraphrase, “All that is required for attention to safety rules to slip, is for those who are tasked with enforcing those rules to ignore them.”  You signed up to enforce USPSA rules. Do it or retire; your attitude is disgusting. 
 

As to the video, I saw the shooter look up as he turned down range. Didn’t see him getting a “sight picture” or anything definitive. If he turned on the dot when he unbagged, DQ. Based solely on the video - no DQ. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Eric802

[CHA-LEE]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

now you hurt my feelings, since our pcc's have c-mores. Luckily we don't shoot them at uspsa matches. (whew!)

 

Good thing hurt feelings makes you stronger.....

[JKD]

Seems most people are focused on taking a sight picture. The actual language in 10.5.19 states:

 

Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only.  All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. 

“Handling” in the rule book is defined as:

 

(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding, or 

gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.  Note 

exceptions for casing/uncasing PCC.
 

So according to the rule book, you cannot handle the firearm, with the exception of placing or removing it from the conveyance (transport), except in the Safe Area or under direct supervision of the RO. 
 

According to the language of the rule book, the ONLY thing you can do when unbagging a PCC at a table is transport it to the Safe Area or to the RO. Therefore doing anything else including, but not limited to, looking through the sight is a DQ. 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by JKD

[louu]

I can't believe the level of suck in this thread. 

[Nolan]

Having known the RO and Assistant RO for over 20 years.

 

1.  Both follow Troy's Rule Number 1 "Don't be a Dick".  Both are very even handed RO's.

2. The RO is a frequent PCC competitor so you can forget the "PCC hate" scenarios.

3.  I've been run through many, many stages by both and have NEVER experienced or seen any animus towards any competitor.

 

The video clearly does NOT show the violation and that is rightly why video is not allowed to confirm or deny.

 

I was not there, but I would suspect the RO's saw the competitor unbag, saw the competitor turn on the sight, and confirmed it when he lifted the PCC straight up and looked through it, then issued the STOP command.

 

For PCC this is why I bring mine to the line in a cheap tan $20 airsoft rifle soft case, unbag after the MAKE READY command and throw the bag on the ground behind or beside me.  Then do all the necessary to make ready.  After ULSC, IF CLEAR, HAMMER DOWN, FLAG, my PCC goes vertically, straight into the case if some nice, kind soul has brought it up to me, and if my wife isn't there, it's carried vertical back to the bag/unbag table and straight into the case.

 

Nolan

Edited June 2, 2021 by Nolan
spelling

[Nolan]

 

26 minutes ago, louu said:

I can't believe the level of suck in this thread. 

 

If the original post had been more straight forward and less of a guessing game, this thread would have a much lower level of suck and would have never gone past one page and OuterLimit's obligatory PCC sniping!

 

Not sure of the intent of the OP, so not sure if this was some effort at trolling?  Some effort for learning as stated? or ????

It would be nice to hear both sides of this, from the competitor that was DQ'd and from one of the RO's, but after the vitriol shown from the peanut gallery, that's probably not going to happen.  I suspect both have more important things to do than argue on the interwebs.

 

Nolan

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, JKD said:

Seems most people are focused on taking a sight picture. The actual language in 10.5.19 states:

 

Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only.  All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. 

“Handling” in the rule book is defined as:

 

(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding, or 

gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.  Note 

exceptions for casing/uncasing PCC.
 

So according to the rule book, you cannot handle the firearm, with the exception of placing or removing it from the conveyance (transport), except in the Safe Area or under direct supervision of the RO. 
 

According to the language of the rule book, the ONLY thing you can do when unbagging a PCC at a table is transport it to the Safe Area or to the RO. Therefore doing anything else including, but not limited to, looking through the sight is a DQ. 

 

 

You cannot handle a firearm with your eyes.  Looking at it, through it, or past it in no way, shape or form comes even close to the definition of handling; both the one in the rules and the one in the dictionary.

 

Your last paragraph is your own personal inference of the rules and nowhere is that (or anything close to that) stated.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, Nolan said:

 

 

If the original post had been more straight forward and less of a guessing game, this thread would have a much lower level of suck

 

 

This is the second rules related thread this week in which either incomplete information is given or it's dripped in little by little.

 

 

[Jollymon32]

Is there a way to block the posts or responses of a particular user?

 

anyway, good stuff here.  I am sure NROI will make an article out of this.

[RJH]

42 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

Is there a way to block the posts or responses of a particular user?

 

anyway, good stuff here.  I am sure NROI will make an article out of this.

On the desktop site click on your profile in the top right corner, then click on "ignored users," then start typing the name of who you want to ignore, etc

[Jollymon32]

52 minutes ago, RJH said:

On the desktop site click on your profile in the top right corner, then click on "ignored users," then start typing the name of who you want to ignore, etc

AWESOME!  

 

I won't have to deal with the absurd pomposity of a self absorbed individual.  The individual's perceived importance, however delusional, was good for a laugh.  Until the pity kicked in....

[George16]

5 minutes ago, Jollymon32 said:

AWESOME!  

 

I won't have to deal with the absurd pomposity of a self absorbed individual.  The individual's perceived importance, however delusional, was good for a laugh.  Until the pity kicked in....

Amen to that .

[JKD]

4 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You cannot handle a firearm with your eyes.  Looking at it, through it, or past it in no way, shape or form comes even close to the definition of handling; both the one in the rules and the one in the dictionary.

 

Your last paragraph is your own personal inference of the rules and nowhere is that (or anything close to that) stated.

I’m not sure how you got personal inference from the stated language of “All other gun handling”.  Seems pretty clear to me. 

[Jollymon32]

27 minutes ago, JKD said:

I’m not sure how you got personal inference from the stated language of “All other gun handling”.  Seems pretty clear to me. 

"Because "handling" comes from the latin term "Hand" which means.....blah blah blah blah blah......"

 

Don't feed the troll dude...

[SGT_Schultz]

28 minutes ago, JKD said:

I’m not sure how you got personal inference from the stated language of “All other gun handling”.  Seems pretty clear to me. 

Looking at something (the sight in this case) isn't handling it.  

[SGT_Schultz]

Just now, Jollymon32 said:

"Because "handling" comes from the latin term "Hand" which means.....blah blah blah blah blah......"

 

Don't feed the troll dude...

You have nothing useful to add.  Go away.

[Shootingaggie]

This is teaching me to be extra careful with my PCC in the future. 

[GrumpyOne]

Can't you guys just get along and agree to disagree?