Is this a Disqualification ("DQ")?

[mreed911]

25 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 What is not the rule?

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

As long as you've got the gun pointed at the berm, I'm not too worried about constant surveillance to catch any slip-ups.

 

You can't do whatever you want when unbagging a PCC at the berm, regardless of who's paying attention.  The rules are clear on what can and can't be done and BOTH sides should be enforced as written.

 

[UpYoursPal]

7 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

I don't think that matters really, but that is just my opinion and the opinion of the RO's on site. If I were you, I would check your own resources and/or the DNROI for clarification. Maybe a local CRO can clarify? 

 

But from my knowing the shooter and having attended many many matches together, he is turning on and double checking his optic, which is not entirely clear in the video I suppose.  

If he turned the dot on, that's a cut and dry violation of 10.5.19 as others have pointed out.

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

 

You can't do whatever you want when unbagging a PCC at the berm, regardless of who's paying attention.  The rules are clear on what can and can't be done and BOTH sides should be enforced as written.

 

that is absolutely true, but if I'm running shooters, I'm not going to be carefully watching the pcc unbagging process, so my point was that it shouldn't be distracting to an RO.

[motosapiens]

37 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

That's not the rules, either, though.  The rules are clear and should be enforced.

the rules say an RO running shooters should also be paying careful attention to the pcc unbagging area? Hmmm. Perhaps my post was unclear.

[IHAVEGAS]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the rules say an RO running shooters should also be paying careful attention to the pcc unbagging area? Hmmm. Perhaps my post was unclear.

Or perhaps you are both right. Any sport - rules should be enforced, any sport - referees have to prioritize where to focus their attention and what actions (bagging - scoring - starting next shooter) can be done simultaneously. 

[broadside72]

33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that is absolutely true, but if I'm running shooters, I'm not going to be carefully watching the pcc unbagging process, so my point was that it shouldn't be distracting to an RO.

 

But they were not running shooters right then, from the video it looks like the squad just came back from a reset. But that does not matter. CRO has oversight of the stage

The PCC tables there were well marked. The rules are readily available. There is no defined time limit to make ready when given the command. There is no reason a PCC shooter can't uncase at the PCC table then step over to the safe table to finger bang his gun.  The bay in this video has it's own safe table so he would not have had to go far to the table, or he could have just waited for the make ready command on the line.

The issue is entirely what happened off screen after the case was unzipped and before the rifle was visible

Edited June 1, 2021 by broadside72

[RJH]

As a person who does some ROing here and there, I am not DQing anyone for turning on their dot or glancing through a dot at a berm with their PCC, dyrfiring is a different story.  Fire me if you like

[Sarge]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

As a person who does some ROing here and there, I am not DQing anyone for turning on their dot or glancing through a dot at a berm with their PCC, dyrfiring is a different story.  Fire me if you like

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Sarge

[broadside72]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

As a person who does some ROing here and there, I am not DQing anyone for turning on their dot or glancing through a dot at a berm with their PCC, dyrfiring is a different story.  Fire me if you like

 

Then you are fired. Rules are rules and are meant to be enforced equally for everyone. What happens when you let your local shooter slide on this over and over and then they spend a crap load of time, money, PTO, etc going to PCC Nats only to get DQ'd first stage for doing it because you let them get away with it and it became second nature to them to just do it? Sure it is their fault for not knowing the rules, but you sure didn't help them any,

[BritinUSA]

Probably a silly question, but I will ask it anyway, because I’m bored; If a competitor reaches into their bag at the PCC table to remove their rifle and while their hands are inside the bag, turn the dot on. Would that also be a DQ, if so how would anyone know ?

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

Then you are fired. Rules are rules and are meant to be enforced equally for everyone. What happens when you let your local shooter slide on this over and over and then they spend a crap load of time, money, PTO, etc going to PCC Nats only to get DQ'd first stage for doing it because you let them get away with it and it became second nature to them to just do it? Sure it is their fault for not knowing the rules, but you sure didn't help them any,

I can only call what i see, and I can promise you I will never see a shooter turn on his dot or glance through it at  a berm.  If he gets DQed somewhere else, that is on him, I ain't his momma.  

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 

 

LOL, I have 100% said that old lady with the pictures on the wall is just like me

[BlindAsABat]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

As a person who does some ROing here and there, I am not DQing anyone for turning on their dot or glancing through a dot at a berm with their PCC, dyrfiring is a different story.  Fire me if you like

Then you are doing the shooters that you RO a disservice. This attitude is EXACTLY the reason this happened in the first place. The guys club does not enforce this rule (I asked him) and when he went to shoot somewhere else (in this case a Level 2 match), he did what he normally does at his club. Both Troy and Carl were at the match and I believe Carl would have signed off on the DQ.

[BritinUSA]

Why don’t they just come to the line with a bagged rifle, then unbag at the ‘Make Ready’ ?

 

You know, that old rule about never handling your firearm unless under the direction of the Range Officer.

Edited June 1, 2021 by BritinUSA

[RJH]

1 minute ago, BlindAsABat said:

Then you are doing the shooters that you RO a disservice. This attitude is EXACTLY the reason this happened in the first place. The guys club does not enforce this rule (I asked him) and when he went to shoot somewhere else (in this case a Level 2 match), he did what he normally does at his club. Both Troy and Carl were at the match and I believe Carl would have signed off on the DQ.

 

No, the reason that happened is because he didn't read the rule book.  RO's, while seeing most things won't see everything, I simply stated what I won't ever see.  

 

Don't blame a person's lack of reading a rule book on someone else.  It is TOTALLY  THE SHOOTERS FAULT for  not reading the rules, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT PRETAIN TO THE DIVISION HE IS SHOOTING, but nice try putting the blame on someone else, very 2021 of you LOL

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Why don’t they just come to the line with a bagged rifle, then unbag at the ‘Make Ready’ ?

 

You know, that old rule about never handling your firearm unless under the direction of the Range Officer.

 

This is not a bad idea, and probably the correct answer, but in the name of pushing shooters through in short time,  racks and tables are available, and many times preferred by the MD

[SGT_Schultz]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

No, the reason that happened is because he didn't read the rule book.  RO's, while seeing most things won't see everything, I simply stated what I won't ever see.  

 

Don't blame a person's lack of reading a rule book on someone else.  It is TOTALLY  THE SHOOTERS FAULT for  not reading the rules, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT PRETAIN TO THE DIVISION HE IS SHOOTING, but nice try putting the blame on someone else, very 2021 of you LOL

 

You can dance around this all you want, you just told everyone that you will selectively enforce rules.

 

So glad I don't shoot around you.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I do shoot some PCC and while I agree it probably could be worded better, but I certainly agree with the intent of the rule.  People dicking around with a gun at the side berm while the RO is running other shooters is a distraction.  I think the rule intends to stop this process from being a distraction.  It may be completely safe to adjust optics, turn them on etc, it would be hard for the RO, to watch the PCC shooter "adjusting their optic" to make sure safety violations are not broken in that process while running other shooters.

 

To be honest its not hard for a PCC shooter to only pull his PCC from the bad and wait till they are on the line and have been given the command "make ready" to do anything to their rifle.  While this seems to be a case of an over zealous RO, I myself do not understand the purpose of looking through the optic in the manner the shooter did.  To what purpose?  All of that to have an RO who seemingly misunderstood the rule then DQ you.  You always have the chance or running into ROs, that have agendas, or simply do not understand some of the rules as they should.  Why give them any chance to DQ you?  If you do want to operate in this manner like @CHA-LEE mentioned above, "As a competitor, all you can do is arm yourself with a solid understanding of the rules and have a crisp $100 bill in your wallet to arbitrate these poor rulings when they happen."

 

@BillChunn seem to have broken down the tape pretty well to where this is a pretty solid consensus on what happened.  But without fully understanding what happened at the table "un-bagging area", can we really say for certain?  While it looks like a DQ that should not have happened I was not there and cannot say for certain.

 

There is merit to the approach of being extra cautious to avoid controversy

 

There's also merit to the approach of doing everything that one is allowed and then dealing with those who either are either accidentally or willfully ignorant.

[SGT_Schultz]

6 hours ago, BillChunn said:

At the 00:13 mark you can hear the case zippers being moved.  At the 00:15 mark it appears that both RO's are looking toward the competitor who is still out of the frame.  The carbine enters the frame at 00:19 pointed upward.  The "Stop" command is issued at 00:20.

 

BC

 

 

I just watched it again as carefully as I could.

 

The RO called STOP as soon as the shooter looked up at the sight (the rifle was already out of the case and vertical), not one second before.

 

There was another RO looking at the shooter while he unbagged (heard the zipper) and he said nothing at all during that process.

 

I stand by what I said, based on everything that has been shown here as evidence (not hearsay) this was 110% a bad call.

[BlindAsABat]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

No, the reason that happened is because he didn't read the rule book.  RO's, while seeing most things won't see everything, I simply stated what I won't ever see.  

 

Don't blame a person's lack of reading a rule book on someone else.  It is TOTALLY  THE SHOOTERS FAULT for  not reading the rules, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT PRETAIN TO THE DIVISION HE IS SHOOTING, but nice try putting the blame on someone else, very 2021 of you LOL

 

You are absolutely correct. It is the shooters responsibility to know the rules. No argument.

 

It is also our responsibility as ROs to enforce the rules, and in doing so to educate shooters. Not everyone knows all the rules or interprets them in the same way. It would have been much better to DQ at a local and learn a lesson then to travel to a level 2 in another state and do it there.

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You can dance around this all you want, you just told everyone that you will selectively enforce rules.

 

So glad I don't shoot around you.

 

No dancing, it is the shooters fault and I would not see it, pretty simple.

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

The issue is entirely what happened off screen after the case was unzipped and before the rifle was visible

 

Nope, the DQ was called for on-screen action.  Incorrectly.

 

33 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Why don’t they just come to the line with a bagged rifle, then unbag at the ‘Make Ready’ ?

 

You know, that old rule about never handling your firearm unless under the direction of the Range Officer.

 

The rules don't require that.  In fact, they specifically allow for unbagging at the berm without supervision.

[IL-SIG]

What exactly do you mean that you “would not see it”?  If you mean that you will intentionally not enforce an approved safety rule, you should turn in your RO card and stop officiating matches. By asserting definitively that you won’t see it, I interpret that to mean you will ignore a safety violation that may happen right in front of you. 
 

I highly encourage you to properly enforce all rules in the rule book regardless of what level match you are officiating. If you’re only selectively enforcing the rules that you think are important you should quit before someone gets hurt. Safety rules exist for all of our protection. 

[broadside72]

I suppose it depends on one's interpretation of "manipulating" is when you look at the definition of "Handling" in the glossary as what the competitor here did was not casing/uncasing his PCC as that had already occurred so that exception does not apply here

 

Could he have won arbitration? Possibly

[BlindAsABat]

3 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

I suppose it depends on one's interpretation of "manipulating" is when you look at the definition of "Handling" in the glossary as what the competitor here did was not casing/uncasing his PCC as that had already occurred so that exception does not apply here

 

Could he have won arbitration? Possibly

 

10.5.19 is a safety violation and can't be arbitrated unless there are exceptional circumstances. I'm not sure that exceptional circumstances could be claimed here. Here's the rule. Emphasis mine.

 

11.1.2 Access

Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire.Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.