mreed911 Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) Source: https://nroi.org/rules-qa/flashlights-magnets-and-hip-bones/ Quote The current rules for Production, Single Stack, and Carry Optics divisions are worded as if to prevent a magnet not incorporated in a pouch, but a clarification, based on input from the board, will be coming. The clarification will allow for use of free-standing or stand-alone magnets as well as magazine pouches with magnets built in, and should be in effect, with a corresponding rule update, by the time this article is published. Also, two interesting points on lasers: 1) even though they meet the current definition of flashlight (battery power, light emitting), they're specifically not allowed to be used, but 2) can be attached if not used. Quote And, no, your laser isn’t a flashlight. Lasers are not “tightly focused flashlights” as some have speculated. A Laser is a device that generates and focuses coherent, single-wavelength (generally) light into a tight beam. That is vastly different from a flashlight, no matter how tightly you can focus the beam. Can you have a combo light/laser WML, as is fairly common? Yes, as long as you don’t use the laser. Simple and enforceable. Use the laser, go to Open. By the way, lasers are legal for use in Open, as they are considered a sighting device. Another clarification will be published. Edited March 11, 2021 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 If you have to issues multiple clarifications within a week of your rule change you probably didn't write a good rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 11, 2021 Author Share Posted March 11, 2021 (edited) With the new comment about lasers being considered a sighting device, does that mean that if someone made a laser that attached to an MOS mount (think something that rose just enough above it to shine a beam, perhaps even removing the front right to do so or being high enough to go over) that it would be legal in Carry Optics now? You could even make it offset, slightly, so that you could still use the sights... I'm not recommending it, just asking. Edited March 11, 2021 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 my issue is the erroneous comparison between a broken flashlight and a broken sight. the rules for no division require a FUNCTIONAL sight of any kind. CO requires a optical sight but that is not required to be functional. so saying that fix it like you would a broken red dot is like apples and house paint, literally not even in the same class of thing. I would once again like to promote the idea that we should judge division compliance at the start signal, once the beep happens nothing but the shooting and clock matter. yes that would mean in production you could load additional rounds in you mags "AFTER" the start signal but you light goes out or your CO dot falls off and nobody cares and it creates no questions for equal enforcement. remember this would still mean that if in a capacity restricted division shooting more than allowed from a mag you did not add ammo to would show that you were not in compliance at the beep so you don't need to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFO Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 So, if your WML fails during a match, you must fix it? It can't be removed and you run the match without it. Am I reading that correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 This seems like a whole bunch of hooplah to say: "Put your holster and mag pouches wherever you want. All the Timmies can have their light on their gun. No more moving people to Open for loading their gun with a mag they got off a magnet after Make Ready. Life is more simple now." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 "All the Timmies can have their FUNCTIONING light on their gun." That will be the fun part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I do wonder how tightly-focused you have to make a flashlight before it becomes an obvious sighting device. Is a light that makes a 6" circle at 25 yards a flashlight or an optical/electronic sight? Certainly would be useful for major PF, and situationally useful for minor if it passes muster. It certainly looks and talks like a duck, but I don't think I could point to a rule that says it is a duck. The Production and CO rules have language to make the shooter identify the rule under which it's allowed, but Revo, SS, and Limited don't. Even a more typical weapon light might turn out to be a useful aiming aid for point shooting/target-focus shooting—it's an extra point of reference for gun alignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Fishbreath said: I do wonder how tightly-focused you have to make a flashlight before it becomes an obvious sighting device. Is a light that makes a 6" circle at 25 yards a flashlight or an optical/electronic sight? Certainly would be useful for major PF, and situationally useful for minor if it passes muster. It certainly looks and talks like a duck, but I don't think I could point to a rule that says it is a duck. The Production and CO rules have language to make the shooter identify the rule under which it's allowed, but Revo, SS, and Limited don't. Even a more typical weapon light might turn out to be a useful aiming aid for point shooting/target-focus shooting—it's an extra point of reference for gun alignment. Every time I've stuck a light on a gund and goofed around the house, the centering the target in the beam would get you charlie or better hits on a USPSA target at 5 or so yards. That being said, I really dont think it would be an advantage on 99.9% of the stages that we all shoot: outdoors in broad daylight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Laser....Ugh.... So when is this thread going to get locked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, cheby said: Laser....Ugh.... So when is this thread going to get locked? When the batteries die... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said: When the batteries die... Energizers you know, keep going and going... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 hours ago, UFO said: So, if your WML fails during a match, you must fix it? It can't be removed and you run the match without it. Am I reading that correctly? There's another line there that talks about this, indirectly, where you'd need RM approval to switch out "gun equipment" or take it off. Yes, it's muddied even further now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intheshaw1 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 I mean, can I use a match and call it a WML and surround it with tungsten? it does give off light when turn on .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishbreath Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 31 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said: I mean, can I use a match and call it a WML and surround it with tungsten? it does give off light when turn on .... Under the rules laid out in the blog post, that might not pass muster, but an LED taped to a coin cell taped to the front of a block of tungsten is a flashlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 48 minutes ago, Intheshaw1 said: I mean, can I use a match and call it a WML and surround it with tungsten? it does give off light when turn on .... It might help to actually read the rules and update. Your attempt at snark would be funnier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 In the near future I'm sure someone will start producing a very heavy "light" that also just so happens to function as a great frame weight. Once those come out should we really care if instead someone wants to take an actual WML and add weight to it making it no longer functional? If people are going to find a way to add as much weight as they want hanging off the front of their gun, why make this more complicated than it needs to be? Might as well just make frame weights legal too and drop the "functional" nonsense. This whole light thing seems like it's creating a lot of extra nuisance for many USPSA members and ROs just to make a few Timmies happy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Is the change to appease the timmies or stop the gamers from gaming? Someone please help me understand why everyone is up in arms over a light mounted on a gun? How does that help you? I know people are going to use it as a way to game the rules by filling it with lead to control recoil...but seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 SMH, and nobody would second a motion raising capacity in Production to 15 and we get WML/magnet nonsense that was not thought out or aired for comment to membership before passing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intheshaw1 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, mreed911 said: It might help to actually read the rules and update. Your attempt at snark would be funnier. You're right, I skimmed and missed the bulb/diode part. Looks like I'm sticking a small led light on a block on tungsten for the next match then.... Point is, they didn't think it through at all and there are way too many holes. And by their commentary it pretty much sounds like they know companies are going to start making frame weights with a small light attached. Edited March 12, 2021 by Intheshaw1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 16 hours ago, mreed911 said: With the new comment about lasers being considered a sighting device, does that mean that if someone made a laser that attached to an MOS mount (think something that rose just enough above it to shine a beam, perhaps even removing the front right to do so or being high enough to go over) that it would be legal in Carry Optics now? You could even make it offset, slightly, so that you could still use the sights... I'm not recommending it, just asking. You just got a bump to open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT_Schultz Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 hours ago, vluc said: SMH, and nobody would second a motion raising capacity in Production to 15 and we get WML/magnet nonsense that was not thought out or aired for comment to membership before passing. This. I guess there isn't that much difference in the way USPSA and IDPA are run, for all practical purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 10 hours ago, Fishbreath said: Under the rules laid out in the blog post, that might not pass muster, but an LED taped to a coin cell taped to the front of a block of tungsten is a flashlight. Yes, and you can bet that's coming. Maybe even with a switch to turn it off for a stage where lights are prohibited. 2 hours ago, vluc said: SMH, and nobody would second a motion raising capacity in Production to 15 and we get WML/magnet nonsense that was not thought out or aired for comment to membership before passing. 15 would be pointless since this game is organized into arrays of 8. If they want to turn Production into Limited Minor, they might as well simply eliminate the Production Division completely. I still don't understand why they would keep the box requirement but essentially gut the weight requirement. Basically all of the common production guns don't fit in the box with an X300 installed. If this rule was supposed to allow me to shoot a Glock 19 with a concealed carry type light from an appendix rig, I'm sorry to say I won't be doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssanders224 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, twodownzero said: Basically all of the common production guns don't fit in the box with an X300 installed. I haven’t tried them or anything, but I’m not sure that this is accurate. An x300 doesn’t extended pst the muzzle of a G34, so it’s fine. It’s probably close, but I don’t think an X5 with an X300 is over 8-15/16 either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted March 12, 2021 Author Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said: You just got a bump to open Based on what? NROI has stated that lasers are valid in Open because they're optical sighting devices. That's the same thing CO requires per the Appendix, it's just the CO requires it on the slide behind the ejection port. Find the rule that supports the bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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