NROI states a rules clarification is coming re: magnets, flashlights

[Eric802]

1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

 

Yes, and you can bet that's coming.  Maybe even with a switch to turn it off for a stage where lights are prohibited.

 

15 would be pointless since this game is organized into arrays of 8.  If they want to turn Production into Limited Minor, they might as well simply eliminate the Production Division completely.

 

I still don't understand why they would keep the box requirement but essentially gut the weight requirement.  Basically all of the common production guns don't fit in the box with an X300 installed.  If this rule was supposed to allow me to shoot a Glock 19 with a concealed carry type light from an appendix rig, I'm sorry to say I won't be doing that.

That'd be some pretty boring stages if all you ever got was four targets/four targets/four targets.  15 rounds isn't as good as 18 or 20, but it's still fewer reloads and (IMO) it fits into the spirit of "production guns".  Use your "production mags" the way they're meant to be used.

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

I still don't understand why they would keep the box requirement but essentially gut the weight requirement.  Basically all of the common production guns don't fit in the box with an X300 installed.  If this rule was supposed to allow me to shoot a Glock 19 with a concealed carry type light from an appendix rig, I'm sorry to say I won't be doing that.

 

A lot of folks who don't shoot USPSA today will, though, and frankly that's the point HQ is after: bring in more shooters.  A lot of folks who routinely carry the "short 9mm with WML and extended mags, appendix" are the ones they're after getting to show up.

 

Expect the gun mags to have articles about "the best EDC for USPSA" and such.

[Terp]

...but can I stick my WML to my magnetic pouches between stages and then 'make-ready' mount it?

[Balakay]

22 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

A lot of folks who don't shoot USPSA today will, though, and frankly that's the point HQ is after: bring in more shooters.  A lot of folks who routinely carry the "short 9mm with WML and extended mags, appendix" are the ones they're after getting to show up.

 

Expect the gun mags to have articles about "the best EDC for USPSA" and such.

sad but true... could this all be a big F.U. to Joyce for not allowing appendix holsters and trying to gain some of the IDPA membership?

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

A lot of folks who don't shoot USPSA today will, though, and frankly that's the point HQ is after: bring in more shooters.  A lot of folks who routinely carry the "short 9mm with WML and extended mags, appendix" are the ones they're after getting to show up.

 

Is that what HQ folks have stated? or just what you read into it?   I don't think the new shooter argument really makes sense because USPSA has never really been about shooting your carry gun (although many people do carry something functionally similar to their race gun).

 

Just looking at it on the surface, adding weight to the front of a gun seems like a good way to make cheap guns competitive again in CO and prod, instead of pretty much forcing everyone to buy a race-only gun like a shadow 2 or legion.  Sure some people will put extra weight on their already heavy guns, but that doesn't bother me because I'm pretty convinced that it's not going to be an actual advantage in the big picture, even tho I've already seen some folks with heavy guns convince themself it *will* be an advantage.... I'm ok with that.

 

But I confess I don't know much about the tactical timmy world. Maybe they will show up in droves and NOT get their feelings hurt when they get curb-stomped at every match by b-class seniors.

[SGT_Schultz]

43 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

Based on what?

 

NROI has stated that lasers are valid in Open because they're optical sighting devices.  That's the same thing CO requires per the Appendix, it's just the CO requires it on the slide behind the ejection port.

 

Find the rule that supports the bump.

I guess you're right.  Do it.  Your CO competitors will thank you.

[cheby]

Majority of people don't practice.  They like to show up on weekends to "have fun" and screw around with gear. The organization just gave them new toys to play. They are happy; therefore, this will continue. Get ready for lasers gentlemen.

[Southpaw]

44 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

A lot of folks who don't shoot USPSA today will, though, and frankly that's the point HQ is after: bring in more shooters.

 

You really think there's a lot of people out there sitting at home thinking "I really want to shoot USPSA, but refuse to shoot it unless they design a division specifically for my carry gun"? I highly doubt that's the case. And prior to these rule changes they could've still shot USPSA with their carry gun in Open or possibly Limited, depending on setup. And do we really want to change the sport to suit people with that attitude anyway?

 

Not to mention that bringing in more shooters is the last thing USPSA clubs need in many parts of the country. Lots of matches already sell out in minutes.

[cheby]

6 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

You really think there's a lot of people out there sitting at home thinking "I really want to shoot USPSA, but refuse to shoot it unless they design a division specifically for my carry gun"? I highly doubt that's the case. And prior to these rule changes they could've still shot USPSA with their carry gun in Open or possibly Limited, depending on setup. And do we really want to change the sport to suit people with that attitude anyway?

 

Not to mention that bringing in more shooters is the last thing USPSA clubs need in many parts of the country. Lots of matches already sell out in minutes.

This

[Ssanders224]

43 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

 

A lot of folks who don't shoot USPSA today will, though, and frankly that's the point HQ is after: bring in more shooters.  A lot of folks who routinely carry the "short 9mm with WML and extended mags, appendix" are the ones they're after getting to show up.

 

 

I don't think you're wrong. 

 

However, I think the "bring in more shooters by letting them shoot what is popular in the gun world" thing is a fallacy. 

 

That's not really what attracts people to amateur sports. Good competition, concise rules, organized structure, and cool gear/equipment is. Watering down a sport to be more "inclusive" rarely results in a net benefit IMO.  Actually, in my experience over the last 20 years of competing in various amateur sports, people are DRAWN to the sport specific equipment. Learning about it, buying it, upgrading it.  It's like racing sports, the special equipment is part of the draw. 

 

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

  I don't think the new shooter argument really makes sense because USPSA has never really been about shooting your carry gun (although many people do carry something functionally similar to their race gun).

 

 

Yep. 

[Ssanders224]

10 minutes ago, Southpaw said:

 

You really think there's a lot of people out there sitting at home thinking "I really want to shoot USPSA, but refuse to shoot it unless they design a division specifically for my carry gun"? I highly doubt that's the case. And prior to these rule changes they could've still shot USPSA with their carry gun in Open or possibly Limited, depending on setup. And do we really want to change the sport to suit people with that attitude anyway?

 

Not to mention that bringing in more shooters is the last thing USPSA clubs need in many parts of the country. Lots of matches already sell out in minutes.

 

Yep to all of the above. 

[BritinUSA]

Who do you think will benefit the most from all these rule changes?

 

1. Existing members
2. Potential members
3. RO”s
4. Vendors

[pinkycatcher]

17 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

However, I think the "bring in more shooters by letting them shoot what is popular in the gun world" thing is a fallacy.

I totally agree, the "new shooters" argument is simply a bunch of dudes who bought into the red dot carry sales pitch, and they want all the cool stuff of open, but they can't compete in open. They want an open-lite, where you can't use a $3,000 gun, you can only use a $1,500 gun. Which is fine, but let's not act like new shooters at level 1 matches actually care about the differences between classifications.

If you want to get new shooters in to shoot matches, invite them, then when they're at their first level 1 match, waive the fee and let them shoot, who cares what division they're in, it doesn't matter, they shouldn't care, they should only care about the shooting and if they're worried about classifications and gear then you're failing as a range and as a group of shooters. If you get someone new in, let them borrow an extra mag, let them throw it in their pocket, let them use whatever holster etc. If you're so uncomfortable just put them in open, tell them that if they want to continue competing they should buy and extra mag and mag holders. They'll eventually comply with the rules.

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Who do you think will benefit the most from all these rule changes?

 

1. Existing members
2. Potential members
3. RO”s
4. Vendors

 

1. existing members who want to customize their gear or pistol to fit their bodies or preferences

 

2. holster makers.

 

 

i personally am not going to change anything more than a half inch or so, but I already shoot heavy guns, and i have never been able to reload effectively if the mag is very far forward of my hipbone. OTOH, my wife immediately moved her CO gear forward to mimic her limited setup. the previous rules were a slight disadvantage for her, but not at all for me, due to preferences, body shape, experience, etc....

[pinkycatcher]

4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Who do you think will benefit the most from all these rule changes?

 

1. Existing members
2. Potential members
3. RO”s
4. Vendors

3, and 4. Some of 1 benefit, and some of 1 get screwed.

New shooters don't care, ROs will have an easier time because they can just allow anything without getting their panties in a bunch, vendors see extra demand. Existing shooters who like spending money on useless stuff  will benefit because they'll already have lights and stuff, and existing shooters who don't have lights (which are basically frame weights) will be at a slight disadvantage until they do.

Someone will come up with a heavy light as well and that will be the competitive choice

[cheby]

7 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Who do you think will benefit the most from all these rule changes?

 

1. Existing members
2. Potential members
3. RO”s
4. Vendors

4. Vendors 

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, pinkycatcher said:

3, and 4. Some of 1 benefit, and some of 1 get screwed.
 

How are existing shooters getting screwed by having fewer restrictions?

[pinkycatcher]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

How are existing shooters getting screwed by having fewer restrictions?

How are people who don't want or have $400 frame weights  flash lights screwed by people who do?

How are people who don't want to transition their magazine pouches to magnets and spend a few hundred bucks screwed by the people who already have them and do want to transition to magnets?

Man, I don't know, I truly don't know how people who want to stay competitive in a classification and not spend useless money on something they haven't had to before get screwed.

Edited March 12, 2021 by pinkycatcher

[twodownzero]

3 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

I haven’t tried them or anything, but I’m not sure that this is accurate. 
 

An x300 doesn’t extended pst the muzzle of a G34, so it’s fine. It’s probably close, but I don’t think an X5 with an X300 is over 8-15/16 either. 
 

I don't actually have a Glock 34, but I'm skeptical of that.  My X300U extends significantly beyond the muzzle of my M&P Pro.

 

I am going to be shooting a lot more Production this year/soon, and honestly I'm just going to ignore these stupid new rules.  I wish they would stop.  We need to elect different people to USPSA that will preserve our game into the future.  All these rifles at pistol matches, welfare open, and now this, are foolish changes that should have never been allowed.

 

Lights should have been allowed in Limited all along.  They have NO place in production.  Production has now lost its strict weight limits, and that is asinine.

Edited March 12, 2021 by twodownzero

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

Is that what HQ folks have stated? or just what you read into it?   I don't think the new shooter argument really makes sense because USPSA has never really been about shooting your carry gun (although many people do carry something functionally similar to their race gun).

 

Definitely my read into it.  Since IDPA took the stance of "not shooting your carry gun" w.r.t. Appendix, etc., USPSA stepped up to grab that market.  We see a lot of folks at our local matches here shooting a carry setup as skill building, and many of them are at least competitive.  It's been funny to see how many light-capable holsters are in use... and folks have had to take lights off to use them.

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I guess you're right.  Do it.  Your CO competitors will thank you.

 

Didn't read my "I'm not recommending it" line, did you, before you got triggered?

[Ssanders224]

4 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

I don't actually have a Glock 34, but I'm skeptical of that.  My X300U extends significantly beyond the muzzle of my M&P Pro.

 

Skeptical of what? 

The light can extend about .44" past the muzzle of your m&p and still fit the box (technically speaking). 

Some of it depends on the "key" used, but an X300 doesn't extended past the muzzle of a G34. 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Ssanders224

[mreed911]

7 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

I don't actually have a Glock 34, but I'm skeptical of that.  My X300U extends significantly beyond the muzzle of my M&P Pro.

[motosapiens]

29 minutes ago, pinkycatcher said:

How are people who don't want or have $400 frame weights  flash lights screwed by people who do?

How are people who don't want to transition their magazine pouches to magnets and spend a few hundred bucks screwed by the people who already have them and do want to transition to magnets?

Man, I don't know, I truly don't know how people who want to stay competitive in a classification and not spend useless money on something they haven't had to before get screwed.

 

a) flashlights don't cost $400

b) the people that will benefit from them are already screwed by the people who shoot race-only guns like the shadow2 or legion.

c) you don't need a magnet to be competitive. I don't run one in limited and there is maybe one time a year (and not in the last several years at majors) where it would be a slight advantage of a couple tenths.

 

d) you don't need magnetic pouches to be competitive. very few people run them in open or limited already.

 

 

I shoot alot of SS and CO, and I'm not spending a single penny to stay competitive because of these rules. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

26 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

  Production has now lost its strict weight limits, and that is asinine.

 

it's no more asinine than allowing heavy race-only guns like the shadow 2 or legion. this actually evens the playing field back up so people can add some weight to actual duty/carry guns that weren't built solely for racing.