Racinready300ex Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, motosapiens said: a) I don't think a light would be an advantage in that stage. b) i strongly suspect (based on troy's clarifications) that the wsb will be written to specifically prohibit the use of lights on that stage. I think it would be a advantage, it will be much easier to see your sights with a illuminated target. Does troy design all the stages? Listening to pod cast Mason mentioned the same concern on one. He said he'll have a light on his gun before Nat's which is only a few months away. He's not going to risk going into a match with a potential disadvantage like that. I can't say that I blame him, and I don't think he's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wurm Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 19 minutes ago, motosapiens said: a) I don't think a light would be an advantage in that stage. b) i strongly suspect (based on troy's clarifications) that the wsb will be written to specifically prohibit the use of lights on that stage. Can a WSB prohibit a shooter from turning on a mounted flashlight? This game is supposed to be freestyle, and we are allowed to have a flashlight on our guns, and it is required to work. Why shouldn't the shooter be allowed to solve the shooting problem as they deem best, including turning on their light? Can the WSB limit turning on a mounted laser in PCC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, SGT_Schultz said: Yeah, something that requires solid walls all over the place is going to be commonplace. LOL You see them frequently at IDPA majors. Typically it's a club that has a indoor range and they utilize it as one of the bays and turn the lights off. I think it would be cool to shoot low light stages and it's my understanding that uspsa had them back in the old days. But I agree they will not be common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I think it would be a advantage, it will be much easier to see your sights with a illuminated target. Does troy design all the stages? perhaps you have shot more low light stages than I have. I have only shot a few, 2015 SS nats, which was VERY dark, and the shoothouse at frostproof, which was not very dark at all. In neither case do I think a flashlight would have been any help whatsoever, and in fact, would probably have been a distraction that slowed me down. Our typical low-light quals at my agency are somewhat between those two examples, and a flashlight isn't a help there either. In my experience, If you are close enough to the target to really illuminate it, you're close enough that you don't really need a very good view of your sights. Now that won't stop some jackwagon md at some match somewhere from doing low-light stages, but if it's light enough to not be dangerous without a light, I believe it's light enough that a light will not offer an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, wurm said: Can a WSB prohibit a shooter from turning on a mounted flashlight? This game is supposed to be freestyle, and we are allowed to have a flashlight on our guns, and it is required to work. Why shouldn't the shooter be allowed to solve the shooting problem as they deem best, including turning on their light? Can the WSB limit turning on a mounted laser in PCC? I've wondered about this too. If the WSB can say you can't use your light what else can it limit? Can it say you can't use your mag pouches or magnet on a stage where your mags start on the table? Can it tell you to turn off your dot? No laser for PCC on those stages where they try to hip shoot the first target? I'm sure creative stage designers will be able to come up with some PIA s#!t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, wurm said: Can a WSB prohibit a shooter from turning on a mounted flashlight? This game is supposed to be freestyle, and we are allowed to have a flashlight on our guns, and it is required to work. Why shouldn't the shooter be allowed to solve the shooting problem as they deem best, including turning on their light? Can the WSB limit turning on a mounted laser in PCC? By that same logic, can the WSB prevent me from pulling a flashlight from my pocket and using it during the course of fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, wurm said: Can a WSB prohibit a shooter from turning on a mounted flashlight? This game is supposed to be freestyle, and we are allowed to have a flashlight on our guns, and it is required to work. Why shouldn't the shooter be allowed to solve the shooting problem as they deem best, including turning on their light? Can the WSB limit turning on a mounted laser in PCC? according to Troy, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wurm Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: according to Troy, yes. I wish there was more, according to the rule book, and a bit less of according to Troy in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said: Yeah, something that requires solid walls all over the place is going to be commonplace. LOL Not a common place but at the Nationals (happened before) and Area matches (at Area 5 3 years ago, if remember correctly). The point is It happened before before the rules changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: Listening to pod cast Mason mentioned the same concern on one. He said he'll have a light on his gun before Nat's which is only a few months away. He's not going to risk going into a match with a potential disadvantage like that. I can't say that I blame him, and I don't think he's wrong. I'm sure he's telling the truth, but as I recall he went into the last nats with a potential disadvantage (no frame weight on his limited gun, shooting against significantly heavier guns). I don't remember him complaining about it then. Or is the extra weight only an advantage when shooting minor? this whole thing is very confusing..... Note, I am not 100% certain that mason didn't use a frame weight, but I don't remember one when I watched him shoot, and I heard zero talk about it, so I'm pretty sure. Edited March 12, 2021 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wurm Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, twodownzero said: By that same logic, can the WSB prevent me from pulling a flashlight from my pocket and using it during the course of fire? I thought that, but the rulebook specifically calls out in Appendix D that Installed flashlights permitted - Yes, must be functional. Nothing about using additional non-shooting props from my pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I've wondered about this too. If the WSB can say you can't use your light what else can it limit? Can it say you can't use your mag pouches or magnet on a stage where your mags start on the table? Can it tell you to turn off your dot? No laser for PCC on those stages where they try to hip shoot the first target? I'm sure creative stupid and annoying stage designers will be able to come up with some PIA s#!t. fixed. lolz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, wurm said: I thought that, but the rulebook specifically calls out in Appendix D that Installed flashlights permitted - Yes, must be functional. Nothing about using additional non-shooting props from my pocket. It says it has to be functional, not that they have to let you use it. Agreed, it says nothing about me pulling a flashlight from my pocket. Or from anywhere else for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 31 minutes ago, motosapiens said: b) i strongly suspect (based on troy's clarifications) that the wsb will be written to specifically prohibit the use of lights on that stage. using Troy's logic can I write a WSB that says no electronic sights or lights allowed to be "ON" for a stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: using Troy's logic can I write a WSB that says no electronic sights or lights allowed to be "ON" for a stage? are sights the same as weapons mounted lights? If you could do that, and you did, do you think people would come to your matches? I expect that issue will be specifically addressed in the rules clarifications in order to prevent such behavior. Edited March 12, 2021 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 19 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said: The course of fire begins at make ready. If you drew a mag from a magnet you were then in open. This is incorrect. 5.2.4.1 specifically addresses this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wurm Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 minute ago, twodownzero said: It says it has to be functional, not that they have to let you use it. Agreed, it says nothing about me pulling a flashlight from my pocket. Or from anywhere else for that matter. MikeBurgess beat me to it, but if we use that logic, can the WSB require me to keep the optic off on my Carry Optics gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, cheby said: This is incorrect. 5.2.4.1 specifically addresses this. That rule came later after many inequitable bumps to open Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, wurm said: MikeBurgess beat me to it, but if we use that logic, can the WSB require me to keep the optic off on my Carry Optics gun? If the logic is that the WSB can specify anything that doesn't violate some other rule, it probably can. I also think that such a suggestion would be stupid even if not illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheby Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, twodownzero said: That rule came later after many inequitable bumps to open Yes, some ROs on power trip enjoy penalizing people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric802 Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, cheby said: This is incorrect. 5.2.4.1 specifically addresses this. 5.2.4.1 addresses nothing other than "apparel pockets". So I, in Production, could have my make-ready mag in my front pocket. Doesn't say anything about magnets. Edited March 12, 2021 by Eric802 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, motosapiens said: are sights the same as weapons mounted lights? If you could do that, and you did, do you think people would come to your matches? I dont think doing dumb stuff as a MD is a good idea, but I really dont think doing Dumb stuff as DNROI is a good idea either. by making the statement that you can mandate a competitor not use a permitted attachment that is required to be functional that opens a whole can of worms that A should have been anticipated and B should have been left alone. WML would either kill or add to the number of dark house stages, you added them so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, cheby said: Yes, some ROs on power trip enjoy penalizing people The rules are deliberately designed in such a manner as to remove discretion, which is one of the great things about our sport. Blaming the RO for that is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, wurm said: MikeBurgess beat me to it, but if we use that logic, can the WSB require me to keep the optic off on my Carry Optics gun? not remove but turn off, if removed bump to open because the optic is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 12, 2021 Share Posted March 12, 2021 Just now, twodownzero said: The rules are deliberately designed in such a manner as to remove discretion, which is one of the great things about our sport. Blaming the RO for that is silly. I would say the rules are deliberately designed to stop people from figuring out ways to be dicks and interpret things in a way to punish people. That's why our rulebook keeps growing. People keep finding new ways to be dicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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