2011 and Carry optics

[deerslayer]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I would still shoot major, and so would everyone good except for sponsored shooters that *had* to shoot minor, but it might reduce the whining.

 

with a big 2011 magwell and a few mins of practice, a reload takes literally zero time on anything resembling a normal stage.

I am a Limited-M and have lots of experience reloading a 2011 with a big magwell, but not having to reload is always faster.  But I would also probably stick with major.  

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I am a Limited-M and have lots of experience reloading a 2011 with a big magwell, but not having to reload is always faster.  But I would also probably stick with major.  

i have timed it myself and I have watched plenty of other M's and GM's, both in stages and in drills. Not having to reload (one time)  is very rarely faster unless you suck at reloading.

 

This topic comes up not infrequently at matches, for example when stage layout makes it even slightly risky to do only 1 reload. After a class with cha-lee and a little timing and testing on my own, I confidently throw in a 2nd reload, knowing it is free.

Edited October 19, 2022 by motosapiens

[deerslayer]

33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i have timed it myself and I have watched plenty of other M's and GM's, both in stages and in drills. Not having to reload (one time)  is very rarely faster unless you suck at reloading.

 

This topic comes up not infrequently at matches, for example when stage layout makes it even slightly risky to do only 1 reload. After a class with cha-lee and a little timing and testing on my own, I confidently throw in a 2nd reload, knowing it is free.

I respectfully disagree.  I’m pretty confident in my 2011 reloading prowess, but If the next array is one step away, you better smoke the reload every single time.  If it’s 10 steps away, I’d still rather haul ass to the next array and not have to worry about a reload, especially if I’m moving left to right (I’m a lefty) or going uprange angling to the right, or some other awkward movement.  I’ve shot plenty of stages where these were the only places that made sense to reload.  It’s always better to just GO.  Not to mention the whole oops-I-reloaded-on-an-empty-chamber-and-my-slide-doesn’t-lock-back situations. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by deerslayer

[Boomstick303]

I think there are stages out there where you can blend every target together where a reload could cause you time.  For most stages I think there are spots where you will not eat time.

 

I think it completely depends on the design of the stage.  The percentage of stages where you would and would not loose time on probably depends on the match and who is designing the stages.  

 

[deerslayer]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

The percentage of stages where you would and would not loose time on probably depends on the match and who is designing the stages.  

 

…and how many your magazine holds. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

I think it completely depends on the design of the stage.  The percentage of stages where you would and would not loose time on probably depends on the match and who is designing the stages.  

 

and whether you can reload and move at the same time. but the timer doesn’t lie. ive tried it in classes and also in various live fire and dryfire situations, and most of the time a reload is free. occasionally you may find one that costs a tenth or two.

 

otoh, every single charlie costs an extra 1-2 tenths with minor.

 

In SS it's a little closer because there are 3-4 times as many reloads, and the added possibility of an extra makeup or two forcing a standing reload, so it's possible to contrive stages (and even matches) where minor is not disadvantaged,  but I don't think there is ANY mag capacity that would prevent minor from being a disadvantage to 20rd major.

Edited October 19, 2022 by motosapiens

[zzt]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

pretty much nobody good shoots a 59 oz gun. 30-46 oz is where the majority of co guns fall.

 

Maybe where you shoot. Around me, all the CZs are 54+ with brass grips, magwells and anything else they can make heavy.  The plastic gun shooters are hanging ginormous flashlights off the front.  The new rules definitely set off an arms race.  I definitely WOULD NOT carry 3/4 of the CO guns at the matches I attend.

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Maybe where you shoot. 

i shot and worked nationals too. very few heavy guns. Almost no flashlights. the majority of the guns (and pretty much ALL of those belonging to good shooters) were in the 30-46oz range.

Edited October 19, 2022 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

but I don't think there is ANY mag capacity that would prevent minor from being a disadvantage to 20rd major.

 

On the whole I could see that.

[deerslayer]

A friend is a CO-M and just ordered tungsten batteries for his light.  I didn’t even know they existed. 

[Bakerjd]

57 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i shot and worked nationals too. very few heavy guns. Almost no flashlights. the majority of the guns (and pretty much ALL of those belonging to good shooters) were in the 30-46oz range.

I belive I was the only person, or at least one of very very few people who shot a A01LD. The guys running chrono had to look up my gun to see if it was on the CO list. Lol. 55oz with mag. 

[GigG]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Maybe where you shoot. Around me, all the CZs are 54+ with brass grips, magwells and anything else they can make heavy. 

 

 

In CO?  You need to find a USPSA club.

[shred]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

and whether you can reload and move at the same time. but the timer doesn’t lie. ive tried it in classes and also in various live fire and dryfire situations, and most of the time a reload is free. occasionally you may find one that costs a tenth or two.

 

otoh, every single charlie costs an extra 1-2 tenths with minor.en matches) where minor is not disadvantaged,  but I don't think there is ANY mag capacity that would prevent minor from being a disadvantage to 20rd major.

I was on the squad behind the Open Super Squad at the just-finished Nationals.  Those dudes threw in extra reloads all the time, even if the stage was well-within big-stick capacity... way more often than the wanna-be M's and GMs did for that matter.

 

PCC/Open Nationals proved that major with some reloads beat minor with no reloads at the end of the day, and I don't see that changing.  Limited Major with less rounds and no dot beat CO Minor in that Nats too.

[Stafford]

What would be the purpose of adding a SA trigger to the SP01 or S2? Why not just run it cocked and locked with maybe a larger safety? If SA guns were allowed in CO, why would the DA/SA pistols need to start in DA? Is it likely that requirement would still exist?

[deerslayer]

3 minutes ago, Stafford said:

Why not just run it cocked and locked with maybe a larger safety? 

Can’t speak for anyone else, but that would be the reason I would add a manual safety to my SP-01.  No need to change the trigger. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

For one thing a SA will set off any primer. 
If the trend continues and you can only buy what’s available that would Definitely play a factor in my mind.

[motosapiens]

16 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

For one thing a SA will set off any primer. 
If the trend continues and you can only buy what’s available that would Definitely play a factor in my mind.

if you put a stronger hammer spring, DA will also set off any primer. it's just less fun to use in DA, but if you start cocked and locked it doesn't matter.

 

I have shot my old cz75 production guns cocked and locked in steel challenge (limited division). it didn't result in better times, so I stopped doing it. If i shot my S2 in the new limited optics maj/min division, I would still start in DA because it's simper and just as fast.

[fishhunter3]

I think I have a solution to the division problem, Lets scrap all of them and have a build your own division. When you sign up for a match you check the boxes that fit your firearm,

like single action 19 round no mag well optic division or maybe polymer striker fire open sight 9 mm 16 round mag with a mag well and slide cutouts,

the possibilities are endless, and everyone could have their own division and be a champion

 

AND YES SATIRE

[Joe4d]

32 minutes ago, fishhunter3 said:

I think I have a solution to the division problem, Lets scrap all of them and have a build your own division. When you sign up for a match you check the boxes that fit your firearm,

like single action 19 round no mag well optic division or maybe polymer striker fire open sight 9 mm 16 round mag with a mag well and slide cutouts,

the possibilities are endless, and everyone could have their own division and be a champion

 

AND YES SATIRE

why do you think I shoot revolver ?

 

[Bakerjd]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:43 PM, shred said:

 

PCC/Open Nationals proved that major with some reloads beat minor with no reloads at the end of the day, and I don't see that changing.  Limited Major with less rounds and no dot beat CO Minor in that Nats too.

I'm slightly confused by this statement. Nils won both CO Nats and Limited Nats this year. He won limited Nats with minor PF and a light weight gun. And CO was it's own Nationals match. 

[llamasabound]

1 hour ago, Bakerjd said:

I'm slightly confused by this statement. Nils won both CO Nats and Limited Nats this year. He won limited Nats with minor PF and a light weight gun. And CO was it's own Nationals match. 

He’s referencing prior year nationals. Specifically 2018 had PCC/Open/CO and 2019 had PCC/Open and Limited/CO head to head. 
 

All that said, I haven’t seen a Limited head-to-head winner over CO in the last couple of years at well attended level 3s. First few years of CO most people shot it like production with a dot (Max was an outlier). Now people shoot it more like open.

[Fearless4x4]

I have read through most of this thread (but I admit, not every single post)

 

I'll submit my ideas for critique, and I know some of this will piss off some.  But please think of the entirety of suggestion before losing your s#!t on me. So here goes.

 

There are arguments for every side of everything SAO vs striker, thumbrests, weight limits higher/lower.  But in my experience, simplicity always helps when things become too convoluted.  So as I'm reading this post, I began thinking of what the biggest influence to scoring is, and I came up with 3: Capacity, Point value (major/minor), and Sights (Optic/irons).  Everything else has and argument for and against. 

 

I'm breaking down divisions based on those 3 criteria, along with adding a little balance to keep/restore competitive compromise. 

Major and minor to be determined by bullet OD.  38cal is minor only.  40cal and above is Major.  You'll have to decide whether more capacity is more important, or higher point value per bullet.  Decide what's more important to your shooting style.  This will be universal through all divisions as well as a sport wide minimum of 130 power factor.

 

That being said here's the breakdown of the divisions:

 

Ultra Capacity Irons: 170mm mag limit, Iron sights only.  No other limitations.

 

Ultra Capacity Optics:  170mm mags, frame mounting optic allowed.  No other limitations. 

-----

Standard Capacity Irons: 140mm mag limit. Irons only.

 

Standard Capacity Optics.  140mm mag limit.  Slide ride optic.

-----

Micro Capacity Irons.  10 round minor limit, 8 round major limit.

 

Micro Capacity Optics: Same as Irons but with a slide mounted optic.

-----

 

Now the biggest upset I know people are going to have is losing major scoring on open guns.  But everyone will be on the same playing field.  If your gun needs 170 pf and a comp to run the way you want it to, go for it.  But it ends the "let's lower pf requirements to stop blowing up our guns" argument.  It simply a balancing decision, more rounds vs point value.  Alphas are still the same.  Decide whether you want more rounds or more points per round.

 

 

Next is equipment requirements and/or limitations.  All the gadgets that people add to their guns are essentially moot, if you think its worth it, go for it...  if you think it's a fad dont...  just shoot.  Thumbrests, weight requirements, whatever it may be.  Some like a lighter gun, some like heavier both are capable.

 

The Micro division will essentially lump SS, production, revo and L10 all together.  But remove the restrictions on gun type like SS currently has.  Want to shoot a P210? Now it has a home.  Cz 97?  Now it has a home.  365 xl with a carry comp and magwell?  Now it has a home.  Won't affect the guys already shooting 1911s, but adds the ability for similarly setup guns to shoot as well, without being forced into a high cap division it isn't suited for.  Brings more shooters to the game without creating a million niche divisions to accommodate everyone's little tweek they want to put on their gun.  Simply put, if you want to score higher, practice more.

 

Pcc division would remain mostly unchanged, other than adding a 30 round limit.  All major manufacturers have a 30 round mag available, and in my opinion, mags that double as hiking sticks seems ridiculous.  Keep it similar to what a 170mm mag with 9mm capacity would be, and learn to reload on the clock.

 

Ok, let the roasting begin.

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Fearless4x4
Pcc stuff added.

[cbrussell]

1 hour ago, Fearless4x4 said:

I have read through most of this thread (but I admit, not every single post)

 

I'll submit my ideas for critique, and I know some of this will piss off some.  But please think of the entirety of suggestion before losing your s#!t on me. So here goes.

 

There are arguments for every side of everything SAO vs striker, thumbrests, weight limits higher/lower.  But in my experience, simplicity always helps when things become too convoluted.  So as I'm reading this post, I began thinking of what the biggest influence to scoring is, and I came up with 3: Capacity, Point value (major/minor), and Sights (Optic/irons).  Everything else has and argument for and against. 

 

I'm breaking down divisions based on those 3 criteria, along with adding a little balance to keep/restore competitive compromise. 

Major and minor to be determined by bullet OD.  38cal is minor only.  40cal and above is Major.  You'll have to decide whether more capacity is more important, or higher point value per bullet.  Decide what's more important to your shooting style.  This will be universal through all divisions as well as a sport wide minimum of 130 power factor.

 

That being said here's the breakdown of the divisions:

 

Ultra Capacity Irons: 170mm mag limit, Iron sights only.  No other limitations.

 

Ultra Capacity Optics:  170mm mags, frame mounting optic allowed.  No other limitations. 

-----

Standard Capacity Irons: 140mm mag limit. Irons only.

 

Standard Capacity Optics.  140mm mag limit.  Slide ride optic.

-----

Micro Capacity Irons.  10 round minor limit, 8 round major limit.

 

Micro Capacity Optics: Same as Irons but with a slide mounted optic.

-----

 

Now the biggest upset I know people are going to have is losing major scoring on open guns.  But everyone will be on the same playing field.  If your gun needs 170 pf and a comp to run the way you want it to, go for it.  But it ends the "let's lower pf requirements to stop blowing up our guns" argument.  It simply a balancing decision, more rounds vs point value.  Alphas are still the same.  Decide whether you want more rounds or more points per round.

 

 

Next is equipment requirements and/or limitations.  All the gadgets that people add to their guns are essentially moot, if you think its worth it, go for it...  if you think it's a fad dont...  just shoot.  Thumbrests, weight requirements, whatever it may be.  Some like a lighter gun, some like heavier both are capable.

 

The Micro division will essentially lump SS, production, revo and L10 all together.  But remove the restrictions on gun type like SS currently has.  Want to shoot a P210? Now it has a home.  Cz 97?  Now it has a home.  365 xl with a carry comp and magwell?  Now it has a home.  Won't affect the guys already shooting 1911s, but adds the ability for similarly setup guns to shoot as well, without being forced into a high cap division it isn't suited for.  Brings more shooters to the game without creating a million niche divisions to accommodate everyone's little tweek they want to put on their gun.  Simply put, if you want to score higher, practice more.

 

Pcc division would remain mostly unchanged, other than adding a 30 round limit.  All major manufacturers have a 30 round mag available, and in my opinion, mags that double as hiking sticks seems ridiculous.  Keep it similar to what a 170mm mag with 9mm capacity would be, and learn to reload on the clock.

 

Ok, let the roasting begin.

 

Question; are compensators allowed in all the proposed Divisions or just the “Ultra Capacity” Divisions?

[Fearless4x4]

5 hours ago, cbrussell said:

Question; are compensators allowed in all the proposed Divisions or just the “Ultra Capacity” Divisions?

Any of them. 

[cbrussell]

7 minutes ago, Fearless4x4 said:

Any of them. 

That would be my only criticism; compensators should be limited to just one Division, the Ultra Capacity. Allowing them in all the other Divisions will discourage shooting with “normal” guns and encourage an equipment race. Overall I think it will decrease participation. Otherwise, I think your proposal deserves serious consideration. I think it would greatly reduce the confusion and number of Divisions, increase gun type participation and decrease National Championship costs be lessening the number of Divisions.

On another note; I would make the National Championship a one match deal; choose your Division and shoot it. That is the way it used to be and it was far more cost effective.

 

Just one man’s opinion.