2011 and Carry optics

[cbrussell]

I am one who favors SA Optics either as part of CO or as a separate division, however, I think it best we keep rules stability as it is for a few years. Let’s see how things shake out.

Just one man’s opinion.

[Sinister4]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

they ain't nuthin' wrong with CO. It's the most popular division for a reason. I say let's have a little rules stability for a couple years.

Agreed......"don`t touch"   

[mrvip27]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:58 PM, motosapiens said:

they ain't nuthin' wrong with CO. It's the most popular division for a reason. I say let's have a little rules stability for a couple years.

 

yeah definitely. otherwise it will turn into a money spending game.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, mrvip27 said:

 

yeah definitely. otherwise it will turn into a money spending game.

[mrvip27]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

you don't think certain folk aren't going to be dumb and spend money because "they need a 2011" to be competitive?

[RJH]

1 hour ago, mrvip27 said:

 

you don't think certain folk aren't going to be dumb and spend money because "they need a 2011" to be competitive?

 

Of course they will, but they're already spending over two grand on czs and such before the optic, so I believe the "it's going to turn into a money spending game" cat is already out of the bag. Hell, that cat's already down the street 

 

 

 

And the guys that spend five or six grand on a 2011 or still going to get destroyed by the guys that spend 6 or 700 on a plastic gun and the other four or five grand on ammunition and training 

 

 

[mrvip27]

23 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Of course they will, but they're already spending over two grand on czs and such before the optic, so I believe the "it's going to turn into a money spending game" cat is already out of the bag. Hell, that cat's already down the street 

 

 

 

And the guys that spend five or six grand on a 2011 or still going to get destroyed by the guys that spend 6 or 700 on a plastic gun and the other four or five grand on ammunition and training 

 

 

 

True. You are not wrong.

[Boomstick303]

@Racinready300ex

 

You mentioned "I love this, open is open." Open is open and if you think it's not just look at this past weekend at MPA Race Gun Nationals.  As great as Nils is he finished 32 behind 31 other Open Shooters.  SO YES, Open is Open.  Are we to believe that Nils is not on the level as the top 5 Open guys?

 

You of all people have been in the game long enough that comps, ports, the optic mounted on a non reciprocating slide mount and ability to shoot Major PF with the flattest gun in the game, that Minor IS at a disadvantage in Open.  

 

You indicated.  "It's exactly the same, you just want your thing to be allowed where you want it and screw what anyone else thinks."  I have never disrespected anyone's opinion on the subject of if SA only guns should or should not be allowed in CO.  In fact I have stated many times I am OK if they left CO alone.  I have simply asked the question what would change if SA guns were allowed in CO?  To this point I still have not been given a valid answer to that question.  I have been given a lot of "I want" or "I think " personal opinions.  I have countered the arguments or this "Gear Race" point with the question of which division is in the midst of a current "Gear Race", to which I have not been given an answer.  I readily admit that Open is the outlier in regards to the "Gear Race discussion" due to the fact the gun has to hold up to Major PF.  DA/SA gun(s) are already allowed in CO.  What exactly is the difference in allowing SA only guns in as well other than 5-24 trigger pulls depending on the match?  Again, no reply given to that question.  Before you go there I have a CZ and its great.  Its just not as fun as my 2011.    

 

I have never said you cannot shoot Minor in open and in fact I do.  At a disadvantage, but I don't care because I get to shoot the gun I want to shoot.  I am not crying about how SA only guns are not allowed in CO.  I have simply asked a question.  One that still has yet to be answered other than "I think they shouldn't be allowed because I think so."

 

Its not a matter if I think "screw what anyone else thinks".  It's their opinion, just as I have my opinion on the subject.  No one is right or wrong unless you want to get yourself wrapped around that axel. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

16 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Its not a matter if I think "screw what anyone else thinks".  It's their opinion, just as I have my opinion on the subject.  No one is right or wrong unless you want to get yourself wrapped around that axel. 

 

 

We can say this but that doesn't make it true. The Org put out rules, people who like the rules go out and spend thousands of dollars of hard earned money to but the gear to fit the rules. This is the biggest division and many of these people are happy and don't want it to change. To change the equipment rules is to say "screw you and the money you spent". You just don't say that part out loud. But the action says it for you. 

 

The opposite isn't really the same, I don't care that someone spent thousands on a 2011 minor gun. The org. didn't create a rule set that forced you into that firearm. You chose to buy one because you like it, right? And you can still shoot it if you want to. I have one, I'll shoot it if I want but I don't need a special division for it. 

 

 

[echotango]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

We can say this but that doesn't make it true. The Org put out rules, people who like the rules go out and spend thousands of dollars of hard earned money to but the gear to fit the rules. This is the biggest division and many of these people are happy and don't want it to change. To change the equipment rules is to say "screw you and the money you spent". You just don't say that part out loud. But the action says it for you. 

 

The opposite isn't really the same, I don't care that someone spent thousands on a 2011 minor gun. The org. didn't create a rule set that forced you into that firearm. You chose to buy one because you like it, right? And you can still shoot it if you want to. I have one, I'll shoot it if I want but I don't need a special division for it. 

 

 

Perfectly said. 

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The Org put out rules, people who like the rules go out and spend thousands of dollars of hard earned money to but the gear to fit the rules.

 

52 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The org. didn't create a rule set that forced you into that firearm.

 

Allowing SA only guns into CO does not force you to buy or shoot that gun in CO.  It does not make anyone change the equipment they have spent thousands of dollars on, which will be just as competitive if they put the time in.  It is your and others perception that you would need to.

 

I still have not received a clear cut answer on what would change other than those who can afford and like to shoot 2011 would be allowed to.

 

Got it.  You answer is still I don't think they should be allowed.  

 

I can live with that answer.

[RJH]

50 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

We can say this but that doesn't make it true. The Org put out rules, people who like the rules go out and spend thousands of dollars of hard earned money to but the gear to fit the rules. This is the biggest division and many of these people are happy and don't want it to change. To change the equipment rules is to say "screw you and the money you spent". You just don't say that part out loud. But the action says it for you. 

 

The opposite isn't really the same, I don't care that someone spent thousands on a 2011 minor gun. The org. didn't create a rule set that forced you into that firearm. You chose to buy one because you like it, right? And you can still shoot it if you want to. I have one, I'll shoot it if I want but I don't need a special division for it. 

 

 

 

This is 100% a sunk cost fallacy argument. 

 

The.org made a bad decision originally by not allowing Sao guns to compete in carry-ops because of a incorrect assumption that plastic guns could not compete with Sao guns. That assumption has been soundly disproven the past several years in limited. The other incorrect assumption was cost, but since Accu Shadow 2 that are over $2,000 apiece are allowed and there are several Sao guns that cost considerably less than that, that was also an incorrect assumption.

 

So now instead of correcting a mistake your idea is to double down on it and force everybody to spend even more money on guns they don't really want. It's still early in the carryops division lifespan, now is a perfect time to fix a mistake based on incorrect assumptions.

 

And I say that as a guy who has spent my hard-earned money on a carry-op's gun and I do not own a carry-ops type 2011.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

This is 100% a sunk cost fallacy argument. 

 

Yup!!!!

[motosapiens]

34 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I still have not received a clear cut answer on what would change other than those who can afford and like to shoot 2011 would be allowed to.

 

Got it.  You answer is still I don't think they should be allowed.  

 

You're not being honest. you are already allowed to shoot 2011s. They dominate in 3 divisions. It is simply false to claim that anyone doesn't think they should be allowed. They are allowed and encouraged. 

 

What the rest of us are arguing against is screwing up the biggest and most popular division to suit a handful of people who cry about shooting open (because they feel disadvantaged), but want to change the rules to disadvantage everyone else who already chose guns that fit the existing rules.

 

we now have excellent proof that you win with a striker-fired gun, and also that you can win shooting minor in a division that allows major, so instead of changing the rules, just shoot within the current rules and be happy, knowing that you can win if you put in the work.

[motosapiens]

35 minutes ago, RJH said:

The.org made a bad decision originally by not allowing Sao guns to compete in carry-ops because of a incorrect assumption that plastic guns could not compete with Sao guns.

 

or maybe they made a good decision by basing CO on common modern duty/carry guns instead of custom-made 2011's.

 

I don't really care if plastic guns can compete with SAO guns..... I think there should be divisions where common duty/carry guns are emphasized instead of custom-made 2011's.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

or maybe they made a good decision by basing CO on common modern duty/carry guns instead of custom-made 2011's.

 

I don't really care if plastic guns can compete with SAO guns..... I think there should be divisions where common duty/carry guns are emphasized instead of custom-made 2011's.

 

Yeah, because there's a lot of cops carrying accushadow 2s. From your conversations here I think you're pretty bright, so you have to see the holes in that argument right?

 

I would bet there's twice as many cops in America carrying staccados is there are Accu shadows. And even more of that of CCL holders. (I'm actually met cops and people that carry staccados, I've never met either one that carries an Accu Shadow 2)

 

So there's one more incorrect argument to add to the list of incorrect arguments; they cost too much, they've got too much of a competitive advantage, and nobody carries irl them compared to the other guns in carry-ops...

 

 

Basically the only reason to keep 2011's out of carryops is feels.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You're not being honest. you are already allowed to shoot 2011s. They dominate in 3 divisions. It is simply false to claim that anyone doesn't think they should be allowed. They are allowed and encouraged. 

 

LMAO!!!  I am being dishonest?  You still skirt the question which you guys still HAVE NOT Answered.  What would change in CO if they were allowed?  Your guys perception is that people will need to run out and buy a 2011 or some other SA only gun to play in CO?  That is clearly not the case.  Talking about how they are allowed in any other division is a strawman argument which you guys love.  

 

Lets entertain your strawman argument.  Major in Open is different in I think it has more to do with the gun and how it operates versus the fact that its using Major PF, but I assume you want to ignore that fact.  Minor cannot compete in Open as proven by the fact that 31 Open shooters finished in front of Nils at MPA Race Gun Nationals. I ask you as I asked before, are we to believe that Nils is not as good of shooter as the 31 people that finished in front of him? 

 

Really???  Who is being dishonest.  

 

People are so stuck in the past in blows my mind.  Allow the rules to innovate with the guns and market share of said guns.    

 

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I don't really care if plastic guns can compete with SAO guns..... I think there should be divisions where common duty/carry guns are emphasized instead of custom-made 2011's.

 

And I don't care if there is a division where you think there should be division where a common duty/carry guns are emphasized instead of a custom-made 2011.  Exactly how many people are carrying or using CZs for duty use?   I guess the .org needs to ban those in CO then according to you.  Those have DA/SA triggers, but we will ignore that so you can have the division the way you think it should be.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Boomstick303

[waktasz]

My 2011s are clearly better than any CO gun I have shot before. I'd shoot one in CO if they were allowed, but I don't think they should be.

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Yeah, because there's a lot of cops carrying accushadow 2s. From your conversations here I think you're pretty bright, so you have to see the holes in that argument right?

 

 

 

there are lots of cops and military worldwide carrying sp01's and similar guns. Yes, the shadow is a slightly tweaked version of those, just like we allow people to tweak their glocks.

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 Exactly how many people are carrying or using CZs for duty use?  

 

 

they are standard departmental issue in many places in europe, both for military and police. 2011's are not standard issue, although a few departments allow officers to buy their own.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

there are lots of cops and military worldwide carrying sp01's and similar guns. Yes, the shadow is a slightly tweaked version of those, just like we allow people to tweak their glocks.

 

And a 2011 is just a slightly tweaked version of a 1911. And worldwide don't matter we're talking USPSA. That's why I specifically said in America

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

2011's are not standard issue, although a few departments allow officers to buy their own.

 

So using your logic 2011s should be allowed then.

 

Great we agree.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Boomstick303

[motosapiens]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

So using your logic 2011s should be allowed then.

 

Great we agree.

nope. that is the opposite of logic. 2011's are not a duty/carry gun because they are not issued in significant numbers to police or military. glocks, cz's, sigs, etc... are .

 

anyway, 2011's are already allowed, and are dominant in several divisions.

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

anyway, 2011's are already allowed, and are dominant in several divisions.

 

Strawman argument once again, but I get it.

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

You still skirt the question which you guys still HAVE NOT Answered.  What would change in CO if they were allowed? 

 

i answered that question.

 

At any rate, I'm already researching how to add a dot to my limited gun to shoot major in the future limited optics division.

 

we know that minor will still be both competitive and popular because so many people shoot minor in limited.

 

Hope to see you there.