2011 and Carry optics

[Fearless4x4]

43 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

That would be my only criticism; compensators should be limited to just one Division, the Ultra Capacity. Allowing them in all the other Divisions will discourage shooting with “normal” guns and encourage an equipment race. Overall I think it will decrease participation. Otherwise, I think your proposal deserves serious consideration. I think it would greatly reduce the confusion and number of Divisions, increase gun type participation and decrease National Championship costs be lessening the number of Divisions.

On another note; I would make the National Championship a one match deal; choose your Division and shoot it. That is the way it used to be and it was far more cost effective.

 

Just one man’s opinion.

But if 9 is scored as minor regardless of "powerfactor" will as many people feel the need to run the ammo at Mach Jesus speeds that see any significant benefit of a comp?.

 

But at the same time, it was the rough draft of thoughts after a few beers last night, lol.  Let's see what the consensus is.  

[cbrussell]

I think most everyone will opt for a compensator and shoot major with it.

Might be wrong.

I think your proposal is the best I have seen, beers or not.

Thanks for taking the time.

[Part_time_redneck]

13 minutes ago, Fearless4x4 said:

But if 9 is scored as minor regardless of "powerfactor" will as many people feel the need to run the ammo at Mach Jesus speeds that see any significant benefit of a comp?.

 

But at the same time, it was the rough draft of thoughts after a few beers last night, lol.  Let's see what the consensus is.  

 

Just a quick question. What division do you primarily shoot? My spidey sense tells me it’s not Open. 

[cbrussell]

Thinking about hiss some more, I realize that your proposal does away with major/minor power factor altogether save for a minimum power floor. That puts a different spin on things. The only issue I see is that I think the power floor should be higher for all guns. Something like a standard 9mm factory round. Maybe 150?  I think recoil management has to be part of the game. 

[cbrussell]

Just now, Part_time_redneck said:

 

Just a quick question. What division do you primarily shoot? My spidey sense tells me it’s not Open. 

I know your question was directed to another, but I shoot Limited, 40 S&W.

I do think it is worth considering lowering the Major PF if 9mm guns are still going to be a thing. However, maybe I am wrong and it is no issue.

As I stated above, I think there should be a higher PF floor, whether that is 150, 155 or maybe the best would be 160, I do not know. Shooting 130 PF Guns takes recoil management, one of the founding principals, out of the sport and does not mirror real life loads.  

[Fearless4x4]

30 minutes ago, Part_time_redneck said:

 

Just a quick question. What division do you primarily shoot? My spidey sense tells me it’s not Open. 

Primarily Carry Optics right now.  But currently building an open gun as well.

30 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

Thinking about hiss some more, I realize that your proposal does away with major/minor power factor altogether save for a minimum power floor. That puts a different spin on things. The only issue I see is that I think the power floor should be higher for all guns. Something like a standard 9mm factory round. Maybe 150?  I think recoil management has to be part of the game. 

Yes, my main goal was to make a choice necessary...  You either gain capacity at the cost of point value, or gain point value at the cost of capacity.  That is the main basis of my idea.  If you want to run 170 pf 9mm go for it, but it won't gain anything on scoring.  But I can agree that the minimum floor might need to be a little higher.  Say just below the average powerfactor of factory 9mm.

[cbrussell]

2 hours ago, Fearless4x4 said:

Primarily Carry Optics right now.  But currently building an open gun as well.

Yes, my main goal was to make a choice necessary...  You either gain capacity at the cost of point value, or gain point value at the cost of capacity.  That is the main basis of my idea.  If you want to run 170 pf 9mm go for it, but it won't gain anything on scoring.  But I can agree that the minimum floor might need to be a little higher.  Say just below the average powerfactor of factory 9mm.

Agreed on the PF; we need to do away with both the possible issues/need for hand loaded over pressure 9mm loads as well as allow for the use of normal manufactured ammunition. 

[Part_time_redneck]

2 hours ago, Fearless4x4 said:

Primarily Carry Optics right now.  But currently building an open gun as well.

Yes, my main goal was to make a choice necessary...  You either gain capacity at the cost of point value, or gain point value at the cost of capacity.  That is the main basis of my idea.  If you want to run 170 pf 9mm go for it, but it won't gain anything on scoring.  But I can agree that the minimum floor might need to be a little higher.  Say just below the average powerfactor of factory 9mm.

 

     Ok. Not trying to be rude here, trust me, if I was you would know it. 

     First, I have not and am not going to waste time reading @ 40 pages & 1K post in a thread dedicated to why a certain type of firearm does not fit into a certain division. Not any division, just a certain division. However, some guys possess SAO guns with optics and I can see their frustration as they are not your typical Open division gun. Lumping the two together would put straight up Open guns at a distinct advantage. Point understood. 

     So, if these guns ( 2011 SAO optic ) were rolled over in with the existing CO field, would this give the SAO heavier guns an advantage? Debatable. Personal opinion, no. Maybe perceived but not on the clock. Same guys who were winning before will still be winning. They will then just be able to brag about how they beat the 2011’s also. 

     So, what to do. We could create a separate division. Call it race optics or whatever the new rules czars declare. Still minor but no comps. Other than that, Open division rules apply. But I forgot, we have way too many divisions now. Couple of downvotes? Alright, no problem. 

     We go with the bare bones idea. Completely optic and mag based on divisions with 40 up Maj and rest minor. After all, there are only a couple of us who have had open guns made from the ground up purposely built to operate at Major PF using 9 / SC. We can always have new top ends built for all our guns ( chump change ) and a complete new outfit of mags is no more than 12-15 hundred. And these suckers who have been picking up SC brass, ha. That’s their own fault. We can always keep running 355 rounds at major but should we be allowed to??? Probably not as open guns are obviously ticking time bombs. FYI. Just got back from Nationals and didn’t see any open or limited gun go up in a spectacular mushroom cloud of fire. Only been doing this 7 years and I’ve never seen that from a Major PF gun. I have seen several minor guns pop and puke the mag out while smutting up shooters hands and face. Huh, maybe it’s not the PF? Might be something else.  Off topic, Major has got to go. 

     Another option. This is out there so bear with me. Play the game using the existing rules. Wild concept I know. And probably completely unacceptable to some. 

     In conclusion. A few thoughts. 

1- Try all you want. Any rules / division change is not going to change a thing. The same guys who beat you last week will beat you again next week. This is simply how it is. Maj/ minor. Heavy/ light. SA/DA. Moot point. Come to terms with it. 

2- Guys love to discuss what all is wrong with the rules, especially in the divisions they don’t participate in. They really love the thought of changing those rules to benefit themselves. 

3- How about the capitalistic approach? Hit em where it hurts, in their pocketbooks. If USPSA is so broken, just boycott every match. That’ll teach em. 

Best of luck in your endeavors guys. 

 

-PTR.  Proud flip & catch advocate since 2015

 

 

[shred]

Add a 140PF "mid" PF.  Scores 5 pts Alpha, 4 pts for C and 1 for D.  In 3 years nobody cares about major/minor anymore with minimal butthurt and they can both go away.

 

It's even tactically correct because although all the cops are switching to 9x19, they aren't going to 125 PF 9, they're going to 140 PF 9, and the reason to dump the .40 is shot placement, hence the low points for a D.

 

Maybe stick a 20 rd limit on Limited so the .40 bros don't get too upset.

 

What that has to do with 2011s in CO is absolutely nothing.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, Fearless4x4 said:

Any of them. 

 

Your idea to let anything fly in every division makes divisions pointless.

 

DOA

[Stafford]

I’ve had very limited experience shooting 1911’s and 2011’s and it’s been a couple of years since I’ve shot any of them. 

 

Today, I had the chance to shoot a very nice older Atlas 2011 in 9mm. Trigger and reset was great and allowed for very fast double taps. I thought it balanced nicely. Top of the grip felt great. As it flared toward the bottom, it was a bit thick for me. 

 

Would I have to have a 2011 if CO allowed them... no. Would I like one.... yes. Would it make me a better competitor... no.

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, shred said:

 

It's even tactically correct because although all the cops are switching to 9x19, they aren't going to 125 PF 9, they're going to 140 PF 9, and the reason to dump the .40 is shot placement, hence the low points for a D.

I think you and I both know that the gradual switch to 9 mm by law enforcement departments is entirely due to trying to get weaklings, girls and sissies to be able to pass their Quals. 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I think you and I both know that the gradual switch to 9 mm by law enforcement departments is entirely due to trying to get weaklings, girls and sissies to be able to pass their Quals. 

 

Because ballistics had nothing to do with that decision.

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Because ballistics had nothing to do with that decision.

thats the excuse, just like covid was the excuse for growing govt power and reducing individual rights.

 

if i were small and weak, i would also claim that there was no difference in effectiveness between larger heavier bullets and smaller lighter ones at the same velocities. 

[deerslayer]

Been a while since I chronographed any factory ammo, but IIRC, 130 PF was sometimes iffy and 140 was pretty much never.  I handload, so it won't matter to me, but the 130 and 140 proposals would make life tough for some.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by deerslayer

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

just like covid was the excuse for growing govt power and reducing individual rights.

 

Straw man arguments are your forte.  This has exactly what to do with ballistics?

 

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

if i were small and weak,

 

If one were a Fudd they would think new technology in bullet design doesn't make a difference just like advancements in gun and optic technology wouldn't be a reason to have a more inclusive rule set.   

 

There is a point a bullet that has the correct ballistics is all that is required of the tool.  But keep on with that 40 and 45 are better than 9mm.  There is a reason 40 is dying, but maybe they should listen to the Fudd on a forum on what bullet to use.  What do they know? 

 

Curious to why special forces overwhelmingly choose 9mm over other calibers for their side arm when they themselves choose that sidearm?  WTF do they know?  I guess they are not man enough to handle the recoil of a 40 or 45.

 

 

[motosapiens]

58 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

If one were a Fudd they would think new technology in bullet design doesn't make a difference just like advancements in gun and optic technology wouldn't be a reason to have a more inclusive rule set.   

(snip)

 

Curious to why special forces overwhelmingly choose 9mm over other calibers for their side arm when they themselves choose that sidearm?  

 

 

Physics is not just a good idea, it is the law.

 

if your agency standardizes on 9 mm and your allies all use it, it makes sense to go with the flow.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

18 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Physics is not just a good idea, it is the law.

 

Cannot remember where anyone denied the laws of physics, but you tend to go off on unrelated rants so.......

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RangerTrace]

20 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I think you and I both know that the gradual switch to 9 mm by law enforcement departments is entirely due to trying to get weaklings, girls and sissies to be able to pass their Quals. 

Cost can be added to that list of reasons why.  Heck, the Glock reps push 9mm citing that the 40 cal is too violent for their frames.

[RangerTrace]

19 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Straw man arguments are your forte.  This has exactly what to do with ballistics?

 

 

If one were a Fudd they would think new technology in bullet design doesn't make a difference just like advancements in gun and optic technology wouldn't be a reason to have a more inclusive rule set.   

 

There is a point a bullet that has the correct ballistics is all that is required of the tool.  But keep on with that 40 and 45 are better than 9mm.  There is a reason 40 is dying, but maybe they should listen to the Fudd on a forum on what bullet to use.  What do they know? 

 

Curious to why special forces overwhelmingly choose 9mm over other calibers for their side arm when they themselves choose that sidearm?  WTF do they know?  I guess they are not man enough to handle the recoil of a 40 or 45.

 

 

SF guys use the rifle as their primary weapon.  The sidearm is just a backup, so the caliber isn't as important.  More bullets is a winner on the battlefield.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

When/if power factor goes away the sport will die in two years. 
no doubt !

it’s the cornerstone of the sport when you stop and think about it. 
it’s the same as fuel in racing. 
 

[cbrussell]

12 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

When/if power factor goes away the sport will die in two years. 
no doubt !

it’s the cornerstone of the sport when you stop and think about it. 
it’s the same as fuel in racing. 
 

I agree, however, it might be beneficial to lower it to that of available factory defense ammunition. 

Probably a pie in the sky discussion because I doubt much will changed by the present BOD. However, it is fun to kick ideas around to reduce/simplify the Divisions.

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

I agree, however, it might be beneficial to lower it to that of available factory defense ammunition. 

Probably a pie in the sky discussion because I doubt much will changed by the present BOD. However, it is fun to kick ideas around to reduce/simplify the Divisions.

 

Well for 9mm that would be @150 pf. Of course there is plenty of readily available 40 and 45 ammo that makes 165+, so maybe things are fine now. 

 

I pulled those numbers PF from lucky Gunner ammo test and I *think* they used 4" or less barrels for their testing 

[motosapiens]

17 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

I agree, however, it might be beneficial to lower it to that of available factory defense ammunition. 

you mean raise it? factory defensive ammo is hella hotter than sissy competition rounds, in every caliber.

[zzt]

WTF does any of the latest have to do with the original post?  There are some seriously brain dead people posting on here.  Give a thought to what you say.  As someone who shoots Open with a 115 at North of 1500fps, I'll say some of you are daft.  It is perfectly safe, otherwise I would not be doing it.