2011 and Carry optics

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

I would say now is the time for stability in the rules. 
The thumbrest on the production and CO guns is a bad direction. But if those that make the rules don’t see the direction the divisions are going they need to pay closer attention. 
focus on the future of the existing classes and how to maintain them. 
Example is there any talk about what limited will look like in the near future with the quickly dying .40 ?

How do we maintain the key area of Competition in our sport …power factor. 
Id rather we focus on these more important issues instead of adding or diluting divisions. 

[zzt]

23 hours ago, motosapiens said:

or maybe they made a good decision by basing CO on common modern duty/carry guns

 

That was originally the case.  With the rules changes to allow heavy guns and 140 mags, that went out the window.  I certainly would not want to carry a 59 oz. gun and a spare, loaded 140 mag all day.  Geez.  I'd develop a list.

 

No matter how you slice it, CO is now race gun Open minor.  To be consistent with your statement, the old rules should apply.

 

That being said, I would never consider shooting CO under the old rules.  CO exploded in popularity under the new rules.

 

All of my guns , except one, are single action.  I hate the double/single pull of even souped up triggers on CO guns.  So I think SAO in CO would confer a very slight advantage, just because of the trigger.  IMO, a good 1911/2011 trigger is better than anything else other than the electronic ignition on Olympic race pistols.

[BritinUSA]

If they introduced a Limited Optics with Major/Minor (140mm mag) then:

• Existing .40 guns can be milled to add a dot with minimal cost.
• Vendors will sell 9mm Limited guns as they will have more capacity.
• Competitors get to choose between Major with fewer rounds or Minor with more rounds, like with Single-Stack and Revolver.
• Those who want to further modify their Carry Optics guns can just use the gun in Limited Optics and make whatever mods they want.

And then (maybe one day), we can bring ProdOptics back.

[Balakay]

approaching 1000 replies and the sad part is that it is going to be determined by 8 knuckleheads with their own agenda.

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I gave several examples of 2011's that were cheaper than  high-end dasa guns. I'm not sure why you keep trying to ignore that post, maybe because it disproves your point? If people choose to shoot an SV when there are other options available at a lower cost, they can do that. 

 

 

 

you and i both know that cheap 2011’s are not an advantage without a ton of work, and thats why so few competitors use them. using a springfield as an example is a joke.

[motosapiens]

27 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

That was originally the case.  With the rules changes to allow heavy guns and 140 mags, that went out the window.  I certainly would not want to carry a 59 oz. gun and a spare, loaded 140 mag all day.  Geez.  I'd develop a list.

 

pretty much nobody good shoots a 59 oz gun. 30-46 oz is where the majority of co guns fall.

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

If they introduced a Limited Optics with Major/Minor (140mm mag) then:

• Existing .40 guns can be milled to add a dot with minimal cost.
• Vendors will sell 9mm Limited guns as they will have more capacity.
• Competitors get to choose between Major with fewer rounds or Minor with more rounds, like with Single-Stack and Revolver.
• Those who want to further modify their Carry Optics guns can just use the gun in Limited Optics and make whatever mods they want.

And then (maybe one day), we can bring ProdOptics back.

prod optics was always a dumb idea.

 

the problem with 140 mag for both major and minor is we *know* that heavily favors major. the extra 3 rounds are not near enough to make it reasonably fair. i say this as someone who would definitely shoot major regardless.

[Racinready300ex]

20 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

pretty much nobody good shoots a 59 oz gun. 30-46 oz is where the majority of co guns fall.

 

You're right, and really there is no need for a CO gun to be any more than that. But, I think the addition of 2011's might tip the scale more to the higher end of those numbers. A plastic grip, bull barrel, full dust cover with a pretty light mag well is tight to make the IDPA 45 oz rule. Most people here seem to really like the steel grips which will put the guns a little over 50 oz depending on the magwell. 

 

Now, maybe people start using aluminum grips, or bushing barrels to cut weight for minor guns. All the gun builders will be telling us why their idea is the best way to skin the cat. 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

45 minutes ago, Balakay said:

approaching 1000 replies and the sad part is that it is going to be determined by 8 knuckleheads with their own agenda.

 

Most likely the only undisputed point in this entire thread.

[Boomstick303]

37 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the problem with 140 mag for both major and minor is we *know* that heavily favors major. the extra 3 rounds are not near enough to make it reasonably fair. i say this as someone who would definitely shoot major regardless.

 

We agree here for certain.  Allow minor to use 170mm mags possibly?

[RJH]

49 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you and i both know that cheap 2011’s are not an advantage without a ton of work, and thats why so few competitors use them. using a springfield as an example is a joke.

 

Yeah, that tends to be the case. I do have hopes for the Springfield as a low cost 2011, after they get its teething issues worked out. Other than seeing some reports of them having too short of a chamber, it looks like most of the issues people have had with them could be solved with some springs.

 

I've seen some rock Islands work real well, but top competitors are going to always end up having their guns worked over, unless it's a canik LOL 

 

And I know the title of this thread is 2011 in carryouts, but realistically we're talking saos so there's always the option of the CZ Sao that is ~1600.

 

A Beretta 92x performance or whatever it's called can be operated Sao as well so it could be an option for the Poor's. If they were really really poor they could always use a Taurus 92 copy

 

Also, you may know the answer to this, can't a lot of the SP01s and such be converted to Sao? I can't remember but I believe I've heard that before

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by RJH

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Yeah, that tends to be the case. I do have hopes for the Springfield as a low cost 2011,

 

 

I think it's feasible. I want to find one with a tight chamber that wont feed and buy it cheap. I have a finish reamer and a throating reamer, so that's easily solved. I can tune the extractor pretty easy. Probably dump all the trigger parts and replace them. Slap on a optic and a mag well and go shoot IDPA with it or something. 

 

Most people can't do this stuff and will either spend a bunch getting their gun tuned or fight with malfunctions. At that point the canik is probably better, guns gotta work 100%. 

[Boomstick303]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

I do have hopes for the Springfield as a low cost 2011, after they get its teething issues worked out

 

I think its possible but it is Springfield we are talking about. 

 

 

Something we all have kind of ignored in this discussion is SA does not necessarily mean 2011.  There are a few SA guns already out there that are not 2011s, and you look to Sig's new P226 X5.  I think one of the reasons to bring this gun back was to compete in USPSA in some form in the future, especially when you see Max Michel pimping the gun.  Mater Piece Arms seems to have fixed the issues with their "2011" line (only time will tell for certain if the gun is reliable), but comes in at a very attractive price point at $3k and is very intriguing.  With the X5 coming in at $2,200 it would seem there will be more options at a considerably lower price point than current semi-custom and custom 2011s on the market.  

 

Either way I think its a matter of time before we see this addressed.  It will be interesting how it will be addressed.

[cbrussell]

I am not real familiar with the CZ’s, however I thought they had some SAO guns? Then there is the Dan Wesson hi/cap; don’t know if that is available to purchase.

[deerslayer]

43 minutes ago, RJH said:

Also, you may know the answer to this, can't a lot of the SP01s and such be converted to Sao? I can't remember but I believe I've heard that before

 

I have an SP-01 Shadow and would convert it to SA two minutes after SA is allowed in CO IF I could find the right parts.  And that is a big IF.  I would want a Shadow 2 style safety (which is available for the SP-01, but is like shopping for unicorns, link below).  I shot some da/sa in CO with it this year and the DA first shot is a handicap on certain stages.  Dry fire and more trigger time would help, but SA first shot will always be an advantage, however big or small.  CZ would make a viable SA gun.  I would pass on the others you mentioned. 
 

https://czcustom.com/cz-parts-all/safeties/sp01-shadow-safety-set-ext-left-and-right.html

Edited October 19, 2022 by deerslayer

[Nathanb]

16 hours ago, Blaize said:

and you are exactly one of the people that are bad for the sport. Poor attitude, poor mindset about growing the sport. 
 

gotta do things the hard way just for the sake of it kinda guy.

 

yeah people can easily pop off a magwell, it just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

 

like the other poster mentioned about his group of friends coming out trying to shoot their “actual” carry guns…. Oh no.. wait, you can’t play with those here.

 

this is why people are actively trying to start new leagues and there are plenty other outlaw matches and other types of shooting events for me to get too deep into USPSA.

 

snd I’m not the only one, I personally know of dozens and dozens of shooters who feel the exact same way.

 

eventually you will have fun playing in the sandbox all by yourself. Have fun buddy. 

There are also plenty of people that come out and get whacked never to return again so they go shoot other things. You can’t please everyone. 
 

if 2011s are allowed then you either need to change the rules to allow all the magwells and what not. Or they need to fit what’s already in place for rules. At some point it’s a compromise. 

[Nathanb]

My take on this is it should be provisional division first. See what happens. What are the numbers.  Let the data speak.

 

of course data analytics isn’t a strong point of USPSA either p

[cbrussell]

Has there ever been a provisional division that did not become permanent? I can’t think of one, but I could be wrong,

[Nathanb]

16 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

Has there ever been a provisional division that did not become permanent? I can’t think of one, but I could be wrong,

No idea. I’ve only been around for pcc and co. 

[Racinready300ex]

30 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

Has there ever been a provisional division that did not become permanent? I can’t think of one, but I could be wrong,

 

It should be like a sunset clause, if we don't see X participation it auto nukes itself at a certain date. It should easily hit any participation number we set based on it being what everyone wants. 

 

I don't see that being a thing though. 

[BritinUSA]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the problem with 140 mag for both major and minor is we *know* that heavily favors major. the extra 3 rounds are not near enough to make it reasonably fair.

If the gun has to fit into a box with a magazine (like they have in IPSC) then I think the difference is more pronounced.

[BritinUSA]

37 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

Has there ever been a provisional division that did not become permanent? I can’t think of one, but I could be wrong,

IPSC may have one coming up.
 

When they introduced Production Optics they also added a light version for polymer guns. They think most people shoot steel frame guns due to the weight but I think they shoot them because CZ and Tanfoglio offer more custom parts for those guns that can be fitted under their rule-set. 
 

Either way I don’t think the light version has proven very popular so it may just get rolled into the main ProdOptics division.

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

We agree here for certain.  Allow minor to use 170mm mags possibly?

Adding half again to the capacity of a major 140 mag would be a bit over the top. 

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, deerslayer said:

Adding half again to the capacity of a major 140 mag would be a bit over the top. 

 

I can see that point, but I would like to see some sort of competitive balance between Major and Minor, if Limited Optics became a thing. 

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

Adding half again to the capacity of a major 140 mag would be a bit over the top. 

I would still shoot major, and so would everyone good except for sponsored shooters that *had* to shoot minor, but it might reduce the whining.

 

with a big 2011 magwell and a few mins of practice, a reload takes literally zero time on anything resembling a normal stage.